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Is Corbyn right about Mike Ashley and Newcastle United?

Posted on October 8th, 2019 | 158 Comments |

Corbyn in Newcastle
Jeremy Corbyn with NUFC fan group representatives.
Newcastle United’s next game after the international break is away to Chelsea – use betting bonus if you fancy us to upset the Blues the way we beat Man Utd!

“Barcelona is not a business, it is a feeling. We are not owned by anybody, we are an association.” Sandro Rosell, President of FC Barcelona (owned by 180,000 fans).

In case it has escaped your attention, Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn was recently in Newcastle with North East Labour MPs Chi Onwurah and Ian Lavery meeting NUFC fan groups and outlining his proposals to democratise football clubs in a similar manner to clubs in countries such as Spain and Germany.

The plans would include legislating to give supporters’ trusts the right to purchase shares in a club when it changed hands. Other parts of the proposal included ensuring that the Premier League invests 5% of its income from TV rights in the grassroots game and legislation to stop ticket-tout websites selling tickets at inflated prices, as well as improving access to stadiums for disabled people. The MP for Islington North also took several swipes at Newcastle United owner Mike Ashley, whom he accused of “marginalising supporters.” A Labour ‘community organising unit’ is also currently advising Newcastle fans as they organise protests.

In a quote similar in spirit to that of Sandro Rosell above he also told the Toon fans:

“Football is more than just a game, it’s more than just a club, it’s an institution rooted in the social fabric of our communities. They’re too important to be left in the hands of bad owners who put their business interests ahead of everything else, marginalise their supporters and even rip them off.”

But is he right?

The huge and consistent success of European clubs which are owned or majority owned by their fans such as Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich, or much smaller examples of success under fan ownnership here in England with clubs such as AFC Wimbledon would indicate that he has a good point. They are consistent, democratic, involved and not at the whim of an Oligarch or Sheikh who might get bored, displeased or no longer have a use with his or her investment.

On the other hand, successful fan owned clubs such as those mentioned above either started as members clubs and stayed that way, or at least have been operating that way for many years. What will be the upheaval caused if Corbyn’s proposals were started from scratch? I had a very civilsed debate on Twitter (a rare thing on there!) with an Everton fan who wasn’t so sure. He was (undertandably) concerned because now his team have at last found owners who can back the club financially to compete at the highest level, would they be frightened of by Corbyn’s proposals? I cannot answer that question and I don’t think that Corbyn can either, though I strongly suspect that the owners who would be most averse to it are the bad ones like Mike Ashley.

Big questions such as this (it’s a big question for football anyway) are seldom easy, but what do you think?

Labour’s proposals

· Legislate to give supporters trusts the power to appoint and remove at least two members of a club’s board of directors;

· Legislate to enable supporters trusts to purchase shares when clubs change hands;

· Review all aspects of football governance, including fan participation;

· Ensure that the Premier League invests 5 per cent of income from television rights into grassroots football;

· Enforce anti-bot legislation to crackdown on ticket-tout websites selling tickets at vastly inflated prices, and implement the recommendations of the Waterson Review;

· Ban zero-hours contracts and guarantee a Living Wage of at least £10 per hour for all staff, including those working at football stadia on match days;

· Add women’s sporting events including the Women’s Football World up, to the list of key sporting events to be broadcast free-to-air;

· Improve access provision for disabled sports fans by ensuring that rapid improvements are made and by prioritising action to make clubs comply with obligations under the 2010 Equality Act.

NUFCBlog Author: workyticket workyticket has written 1078 articles on this blog.

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158 Responses

  1. Jeremy Corbyn sat anything he thinks will raise his popularity in the moment
    Just like he did when he promised an end to student loans when he knew he could not deliver

    He knows the dissatisfaction Newcastle fans have with Ashley so when in Newcastle ……….
    No one in the their right mind would think he gives a damm

  2. Could agree more

    The man is so shallow it’s unbelivable

    I am staunch Labour but this guy is a fraud and making us look like idiots

  3. “Just like he did when he promised an end to student loans when he knew he could not deliver ”

    Mike, he still is promising to end student loans. When I went to University, it was completely free and after I left I bought a house for a tiny fraction of what they cost today. The youth of today have my sympathies.

  4. Soh !
    The Boycott failed, but scared “Ashley and co”. immensely.
    Look the man is ready to go to any lengths (free tickets anyone) which worked but is a one time attempt, another full time Boycott could work, as even he understands the repercussions of a poor relationship with the owner could by taking his profits (bums in seats) is an important form of cash flow and make obvious to those watching via tv the fans are actually Boycotting their own club , making it toxic or available for purchase.
    Unfortunately certain fans will leave it unto those who do the necessary Boycotting and deserve the situation that they have had to get used too, but another solid boycott will force him out.
    He (Ashley) will either have to sell up or end up trying to sell a Championship side as opposed to a Premier League side and continue bleeding the club as long as the fans continue to do nothing, is that what you want?

  5. I’m afraid there’s just not enough dosh around the Northeast to buy out the owner, whether by a group or as a shareholding co.
    However I’m sure there are plenty of eyes watching NUFC as a possible purchase.
    However Ashley hangs on slowly selling off parts of the club, bleeding the club slowly but surely until there’s now’t left but the club itself.
    The bums in seats profit is all his and a full stadium every other week aint bad ! It is by now is legendary around the EPL and among prospective buyers, however Ashle doesn’t give a damn as he expects to bleed the club before it becomes unsellable he likes the revenue (which is ( all one way) and you can bet your ass he has little intention of selling any time soon, why should he , he has the fans in his pocket, they are willing to accept whatever he decides and makes it Impossible to sell, he just sez NO ! the only answer would be to Totally Boycott the side for a season, but unfortunately the fans don’t have the balls for a full Boycott, too bad ! live with it !

  6. In regard to Jeremy Corbin, possibly the worst ever Labour shadow PM, who even as we await his formal resignation as party leader, have no idea of his preference in regard to Brexit, nor do we actually know anything in regard to what his policies might be (and most don’t care) a complete waste of time, an embarrassment who’s best days may have been spent criticizing his own party, because he simply failed miserably in his attempts as party leader to make any points against possibly the worst ever Tory Party leaders.
    Of course times change, but to compare the present parties to such giants as the party and cabinet of Clement Attlee, even Tony Blair is ridicules and apparently there are no candidates within the Labour Party who are either qualified or in fact have the backing of any kind of majority nor a party platform that can still attract the working classes. seems regardless of income few of to-days voters consider themselves as working class, in this era of everyone considering themselves middle class, a result of Thatchers de -Industrialization policies.

    And with Brexit now more or less a done deal, what kind of future is there for the citizens of the UK, what with The Scots wanting away (seem like the only country with any sense of reason) in order to rejoin the EU and Dublin being inundated with jobs by companies from the city, mostly financial services because of their well educated and youthful workforce, Whereas those smart folks who live in such places as Sunderland vote to leave the security of a massive auto. manufacturing industry to chance it on WTO wage and be governed (by possibly the dumbest British government ever ,with an idiot as PM . Ah well ! best of luck with those conditions, yes you may be avoiding giving entry to people with darker colored skins but who or what will give you a better life than being a member of the worlds largest trading block ?

  7. In regard to Jeremy Corbin, possibly the worst ever Labour shadow PM, who even as we await his formal resignation as party leader, have no idea of his preference in regard to Brexit, nor do we actually know anything in regard to what his policies might be (and most don’t care) a complete waste of time, an embarrassment who’s best days may have been spent criticizing his own party, because he simply failed miserably in his attempts as party leader to make any points against possibly the worst ever Tory Party leaders.
    Of course times change, but to compare the present parties to such giants as the party and cabinet of Clement Attlee, even Tony Blair is ridicules and apparently there are no candidates within the present Labour Party who are either qualified or in fact have the backing of any kind of majority nor a party platform that can still attract the working classes. seems regardless of income few of to-days voters consider themselves as working class, in this era of everyone considering themselves middle class, a result of Thatchers de -Industrialization policies.

    And with Brexit now more or less a done deal, what kind of future is there for the citizens of the UK, what with The Scots wanting away (seem like the only country with any sense of reason) in order to rejoin the EU and Dublin being inundated with jobs by companies from the city, mostly financial services because of their well educated and youthful workforce, Whereas those smart folks who live in such places as Sunderland vote to leave the security of a massive auto. manufacturing industry to chance it on WTO wage and be governed (by possibly the dumbest British government ever ,with an idiot as PM . Ah well ! best of luck with those conditions, yes you may be avoiding giving entry to people with darker colored skins but who or what will give you a better life than being a member of the worlds largest trading block ?

  8. Chuck! It’s been a long time but I notice you’re still knocking out the same old guff, and in duplicate this time! It’s good to see you back though. ;-)

    I never had any problems understanding Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit policy, or why he would lose badly if he let himself be bullied into fighting for a second referendum, as he was in the end. Although the majority of Labour voters wanted to remain, losing the leavers up north would was always going to have a disproportionate effect in terms of seats lost. 52 out of the 60 seats Labour lost were in ‘leave’ areas. For those who say it was all because he was too left wing, he still got more votes and a higher percentage of the vote than both Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband, but the number of seats still look really bad for the reasons I mentioned above. Of course, the media campaign against Corbyn was so strong that many people actually believed he was an IRA terrorist who hated Jews, and even that he was going to put all of his opponents (especially Jews) in ‘camps’. I was told that myself by an old eastern european lady who was in a real state about it. She grabbed me so hard that she left nail marks in my forearms!

    As for your hypothesis about everyone thinking thay are middle class, in 2016 when they last had a big study, more people in the UK considered themselves ‘working class’ than any other industrialised nation.

    There are great divides among Labour voters / former Labour voters though, a divide between voters in towns and cities, between voters with different beliefs on social issues such as immigration, LGBT etc, between old an young, people who use the Internet a lot, people who don’t etc, all of which intersect with each other to a greater or lesser degree.

    As for immigration, most of it is still people with ‘darker colored skins’ as you put it, with a very large proportion from the Indian subcontinent (ie India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

    Could we please move to a different thread now as this one is really old?

  9. What’s up you don’t want to hear the truth about your back bench hero Corbyn, possibly the least effective shadow PM ever.
    I say send him back to where he belongs to chirp away at those who are neither pure marxists nor anti -semites, (back to the back benches) .
    Say what you will about some unheard of pole that rejects the fact that few not only in the UK but in most European countries consider themselves as no longer members of what is know as “The Working Class “but as what they describe themselves as being Middle Class, it being possibly due to the fact most of to-days jobs don’t require getting dirty or the fact most jobs are within the service industries, following Maggie Thatchers elimination of a whole industrial complex.
    And say what you will, but Brexit remains possibly the most stupid idea, ever, which will bring the UK to eventual ruin.
    It all boils down to Immigration or racism, which you really can’t deny along with the stupidity of the voters, especially those who work for the massive Japanese complex in Sunderland, which could very well close due to the threat of EU tariffs, being most of the production ends up
    being exported to the EU.
    As it turned out it was a majority of the Elderly those who remember seeing only white faces and now reject the fact the country is mixed race, whereas the younger population accept the fact it”s too late to close access,
    These are the results of losing an Empire live with it, even though you may not like it .
    As for the footballing readers I project a narrow escape from relegation
    once more, but no sale of NUFC, which will only result in a total boycott by the fans, who are too addicted to St. James”Park and don’t have the gonads to boycott the side, as bad as it is.

  10. Welcome back Oscar the grouch! You’re back on form again with the usual repotoire, at least you spared us the Mau Mau this time. I’ve actually missed our verbal custard pie fights.

    I won’t bother passing comment on American politics, no matter how bad UK politics are, we can always count on you chaps to go one better. There’s a big thing going on all over the world with the far right wing. They’ve learned a lot from Surkov in Russia, as well as Israel, which is highly ironic. Nobody know’s what’s what, everybody’s confused and angry.

    I notice that the Bernie fans have been turning on Corbyn ‘Oh no no no! Bernie’s not like him! He’s much smarter blah blah…’ I notice he hasn’t that t done that thing where he clutches on to the lectern for dear life for a while. It made him look like he was 103 and he’s clutching on to his zimmer frame. Oh well, at least my MP will have more time to tend to the needs of his constituents in the Democratic People’s Republic of North Islington soon (ie, me).

  11. Don’t worry about Bernie, he could actually make it (get the democratic nod) considering who is opponents are, though my son who is working on his (Bernies campaign) is not that certain.
    At least he is unafraid of becoming the socialist candidate, which has been and will continue to be virtually the same as running as a communist in “the belly of the beast ”
    An anti-socialist/anarchist propaganda issue initiated by the Robber Barons of the Gilded age in the late nineteenth century, which is instilled in the vast majority of Americans to this day, who are likely to believe in those myths such as (Manifest Destiny) along with other US myths about what the US represents.
    At the same time allowing such atrocities such as slavery to exist.
    Yes we are a complex society belabored on a daily basis in certain parts of the country by to-days equivalent of the nineteenth century Labor Barons, who own the newspaper business and broadcasting media in general, which is both quite effective and now is dedicated to a racist doctrine of keep the US white, a fear that elected Trump and who now may unlike Brexit where an overall number, resulted in the decision, the US election is based on The Electoral College, where the results may be subject to Gerrymandering, for instance how many understand that had the 2016 election been based on an overall majority Slick Willy’s wife would now be President. Ah well !

    As for Corbyn, sorry he may have policies and other reasons to like what he stands for, but in many cases couldn’t get elected as a “dog catcher”never mind as leader of what should be The UK’s largest party,
    someone that still remains to most people an enigma, being he seldom if ever mentioned what he stood for other than a dedicated backer of The Palestinian cause, whereas if he had given equal time to the politics of the Tories and their greatest mistake Brexit and “The Clown Johnson”
    we might now see a good future for the country, not a leap into the un-known, hopefully The EU need the UK as an outside trader, as for sure the UK need to make a not too shabby deal from the EU.

  12. You deride Corbyn but at least he won two leadership elections, Bernie Sanders couldn’t even beat Hillary Clinton over there last time even though she was well past her sell by date and smelling rotten. You don’t mention Bloomberg, if it’s Trump vs Sanders, or Trump vs Bloomberg it would be a very New York heavy election, even Boris Johnson was born in New York! Your city definitely has a lot to answer for right now.

    How’s Trump getting on with that wall? Is it done yet? We haven’t heard much over here for a while, though we do get lots of clips of Trump’s crazy ‘stream of consciousness’ drivel.

  13. Corbyn won or was handed two leadership elections, because no one else was dumb enough to run for a party that should have died a natural death following the disaster of that nice Jewish boy, yes the same one who challenged his brother and winning a referendum no one with an too bad he ounce of brains wanted.
    And I think it’s fair to say, Corbyn who no one had heard of , other than the Labour leaders who had to suffer his constant complaints from the back row, who had to listen to his constant complaints about policy.
    Too bad he left the entire country at a loss in regard to what he thought, about Brexit, plus if you cant get the better of Theresa May and Boris you don’t deserve to win anything, never mind the poisoned chalice he was foolish enough to accept.
    And have no fear , the billionaire ex NY mayor is throwing his fortune away for no reason, being he doesn’t stand a chance.
    The greatest of his problems is the Democratic Party and the liberal news broadcasters who are still following that anti- socialist propaganda
    bullshit of a century ago and who are bought by the insurance companies and the super Wealthy’s bag men from “K” street.
    A case of “Capitalism” which though it’s a prescription for boom and bust, though the working classes actually end up paying the price.
    This time he will not surrender his delegates like the last time and is much better prepared.
    Soh ! better to have a leader like Bernie who the voting public look like
    electing than listen too Boris for the next five years, no?

  14. Time will tell whether it’s ‘Feel the Bern’ or ‘Crash and Bern,’ but there’s a long way to go yet. As for your usual drivel about Jeremy Corbyn, since the 1970s, Labour have been absolutely awful at fighting against a constant, and consistent false narrative by the Conservatives, and the Conservative media about Labour and the economy, which then came back into vogue with the financial crisis of 2008, when all the usual drivel was turbocharged once again. The Tories have been hammering away at it for decades even though it is counterfactual, eg Labour have had much lower deficits than the Tories on average, yet most believe that it is Labour who behave like a drunken sailor with the nation’s finances and can’t be trusted with the economy. The loss of Scotland is another torpedo which has breached Labour’s hull, 40 MPs or so up in smoke and that happened years before Corbyn. Labour haven’t lost two elections in a row, they have lost four and Brown and Miliband got even fewer votes than Corbyn did in the last election, but the strategic distribution of Labour Brexit voters meant that Labour lost a lot more seats in the last election than the amount of voters would suggest.

  15. Yes following the Arizona polls “The Bern”. appears to be in an incontestable position, however I hear it from everywhere, that the tag of “socialist” a highly misunderstood term in the US of A, which is the equivalent of Communist is a tough handle to get over.
    With many of the more Liberal tv announcers and left of center politico’s
    voicing their doubt about how he will manage to pay for “medicare for all”and other programs.
    Although the more youthful voters appear to be solidly behind him, unfortunately it takes time to get rid of certain unacceptable terminology that has been in place for over a century and many politicos are afraid they may lose their cosy house or senate seats and the lucre that exudes from that source.
    Yes folks like everywhere else it’s all about the money and lifestyle, politics being secondary.
    But hopefully a majority of those brown skinned non European derived
    citizens, who in the not too distant future can vote to change the worlds most diverse allocation of wealth, with an understanding that people like Bernie Sanders, can set a tax rate that would reduce the vast gulf
    between the haves and the have nots.
    What I see are even the rabble rousers are afraid of any move away from Capitalism, being it is the only ism they understand and of course who owns the media, yup ! the ruling class,(even though we don’t have royals with titles it’s not much different from the UK in truth.
    Have no fear even though, although Bernie is a clearcut leader the country will find a way to eliminate him and all he stands for, much like they did in the 2016 democratic convention when the Democratic Party handed it to the know nothing wife of Slick Willy.
    It’s going to be interesting, and what is actually happening is that it’s the real poor vs. the Tea Party , talking about those middle class voters who have during the recessions lost their well paid jobs and are about to join
    the ranks of their darker skinned fellow citizens.
    Ah well !

    b

    and fear their actual rabble rousing jobs may disappear

  16. Chuck, what these idiotic discussions about Capitalism and Socialism ignore, deliberately or otherwise, is that practically all the most successful economies in the world aren’t ‘Capitalist’ economies, they are ‘mixed’ economies which are a mixture of Capitalism and Socialism to a greater or lesser degree. Even in the US, the temple of Capitalism, you have things like Welfare, Project housing, Amtrak, the US Postal service, ‘Fanny Mae’ and ‘Freddy Mac’ etc. Living in a purely Capitalist economy would be like a return to the Victorian age with child labour, starvation, disease, little or no rights for workers and so on, no welfare whatsoever, no subsidised housing, no public roads, just toll roads run by private companies and so on…

  17. Well all that stuff in your previous comment isn’t that much different from the UK. If they had enforced euthanasia at 45, it would have been Corbyn who won the election by a landslide, but they don’t and most of the over 50s absolutely hate him and think he’s a terrorist who wants to get rid of all the Jews as they still live on a diet of the old fashioned media.

    Many of the more ‘Liberal TV announcers and left of center politico’s’ also ‘voiced their doubts’ about how Corbyn would pay for his projects, channelling the constantly repeated Conservative myths about Labour I alluded to earlier. In reality, he only wanted to increase public spending to the same sort of levels as they are in France and Germany, though most people don’t know that because it is scrupulously avoided, as is the fact I mentioned earlier about Labour running much lower average deficits than the Conservatives.

  18. Well, appears we are somewhat in agreement concerning the ignorance of most electorates on national scales, though in certain circumstances
    the people involved (for instance those liberal news/political debate tv-program s) with supposedly smart hosts, have amazed me by their reaction to the possibility that a socialist candidate could becoming the elected leader, when they should be concentrating on the clown that was and still is the President elect.
    Trump, a con man with very little experience in politics, as a matter of fact none, who uses the full weight of the presidency to enrich himself
    and believes he has the right to pardon criminals who do his bidding.
    Not to forget The Boris a very similar type with no respect for the Parliament that he leads, meaning both our very different countries have similar leaders, although the US economy is doing just fine, according to the markets, we are stuck with a dangerous leader, one who is liable to becoming involved in changing the status quo of the entire world, someone who misunderstands both the geography and history of the planet, an ignoramus, who presides over a country with an ignorant electorate, a racist who not unlike the Australian leaders, wants to keep out those who are not white by building walls and introducing levels of education impossible for many etc.
    What is never stated is the fact that those of Mexican origin once owned both Texas and California and all of the present states west of what was considered the area bought from France the Luisiana Purchase states,
    of course those involved in the theft of that particular chunk of North America had a different name for it “Manifest Destiny”, from sea to shining sea.
    Ah well, ignorance is not YET a crime.

  19. Well, Chuck, I’m surprised that you seem to be surprised at those ‘Liberal’ TV hosts, did you really expect them to be any different?

    You are very harsh on the electorate, most people don’t have time for deep analysis of what the bastards are up to and they make it deliberately complicated too with deliberate distractions. Boris and Trump aren’t the same, maybe they’re both an eccentric entertaiment spectacle that conceals something more dangerous but they’re very different in other ways.

    I’ve heard that Trump’s economic ‘miracle’ is like the Tory economic miracle. They say it’s there on paper somewhere, but no one can actually see it or feel it in real life. Am I right?

  20. The truth of the matter is The US electorate are possibly victims of their own environment , just as the citizens of the former Soviet Union and other’s (dictatorships of various types) conned their citizens into believing their systems were dictated by the votes of the people themselves and every decision made by those governments regardless of their political bent, were essential, but it was actually the jobs of the aparachicks who worked for the system depended on supporting the local dictator or party leaders.
    Unfortunately true democracies are rare, governments who are dedicated to those they govern, the closest of which are the present Social Democratic countries of whats generally referred to as Scandinavia.
    Where all parties are given equal opportunity to be represented on the ballot even the “Mickey Mouse Party” or others who see no party that represents, their ideal therefor show their dissension through voting for these parties with no hope of winning (an interesting way to show discontent that will be noted)
    And yes we understand these countries mentioned are for the most part both small and manageable, (even following the opening of the former Soviet Unions former Eastern block and the more recent middle eastern wars too refugees) they remain a goal for most new Liberal Democracies to follow.
    Of course you guys “The UK” ( is it still subjects or have you been upgraded to citizens ) or whatever remains following the Scots exit as soon as possible and the eventual reunion of Ireland, afraid Wales is seldom mentioned so there ? afraid we have no idea.
    Not a great scenario to look forward too, but let’s see how Boris and his band of Torys do, in regard to the presently renegotiations in regard to future trade deals .
    As for finding new markets, being the UK is now fully integrated as a service industry, exactly what are they about to sell to others, Asia being the new world that produces what the rest of the world buys, which cannot last
    Ah Well, born a century too late, I suppose, Empire with it’s riches and ahclosed markets gone, industry gone , the Scots about to to abandon ship, losing a number of financial markets to EU countries and having the Tories negotiating a new economic deal with the EU, which following the more simple negotiations in regard to departure , doesn’t really inspire one,
    Ah Well, could be worse !

  21. Chuck, you do like to overreach, you go racing through centuries of history all over the world making huge generalisations with gay abandon. Just what do you mean by ‘true democracies?’ Some people use it as an alternative term for direct democracy of the kind you might find in Switzerland with lots of referendums and such. Some would even say that ‘Brexit’ was true democracy. If you were referring to the top ranked countries in the World Democracy Index, you would have a good point about the Scandinavians, along with a few parts of the old Empire like Canada and New Zealand. If your lot didn’t leave the bosom of the empire so rudely, maybe the US could have aspired to be as democratically excellent as those countries? As it is the land of the free and the home of the brave isn’t in the Premier League of ‘full democracies’ like the UK and the other countries I’ve mentioned, you have been relegated to the league of ‘flawed’ democracies.

    The problem of an ignorant or ill informed electorate goes back to the dawn of democracy with Socrates and Plato, the answer is an informed electorate who are taught how to think critically, but that’s the last thing any government would want to do.

  22. FFS ! what else would you expect but a very general statement, on such a broadly targeted subject, indeed little reason to enlist both Plato and Socrates to make your point.
    For the most part trying to make sense of what the world has become and where it’s heading and had you asked fifty years ago the real answer would have been, that most major cities would have people walking around either talking too themselves or too a gadget that many felt was impossible to produce, the Dick Tracey picture phone and had you mentioned Men on the Moon, you may have been considered a lunatic and placed in Cox Lodge Lunatic Asylum located in Gosforth.
    Yes time changes everything and the changes come faster, look at who dominates the top corporations and their projected worth, while the Amazons of the world can facilitate the purchase of an item guaranteeing delivery the following day, no wonder the big box stores are closing, (Might be a good idea for Ashley note that) but things change faster more laws are introduced, bout time we began examining the law and finding ways to eliminate and decrease the number of laws useless if fact in this day and age, but I forgot You UK guys cherish those olde type laws and often mention them to strangers, why I don’t know.
    I noted the other day that PM Johnson has stated if the UK doesn’t get it’s way in the upcoming talks on trade, they will leave without a deal, being in his opinion The EU needs the UK, more than vice versa, “hey it got a chuckle from me” believe me he knows better, but perhaps the UK
    needs a few years trading under the WTO rules to figure out leaving was
    not such a great idea.

  23. Chuck, I was just pointing out that the problem of an ill-equipped electorate is a very old debate which goes back to the dawn of democracy. Socrates was quite right to have concerns about the fitness of voters, as it was a democratic vote of 500 Athenian citizens voted for his death!

    Well I don’t shop at Sports Direct but from what I’ve heard, Sports Direct can’t even guarantee delivery at any time, never mind next day! nearly all their reviews seem to be 1 star saying things like ‘item didn’t arrive and customer service was non existent, would give 0 out of 5 if I could…’ I don’t think Ashley’s adapting to the internet very well.

    I was born in Gosforth where Coxlodge is, but my mother would say they’d cart me off to Cherry Knowle if I wasn’t careful, that was the highly sinister looking Mackem lunatic asylum that looked like it could be a home for Dracula or the Addams Family. If you were locked up in a lunatic asylum, in Sunderland, that would definitely be rock bottom!

    https://www.whateversleft.co.uk/asylums/cherry-knowle-asylum-sunderland

  24. Well fact is neither Socrates or Plato reasoned that democracy was their favorite form of government, though what’s referred too as democracy in most countries in this modern age, is more like a form of oligarchy, a system with all the trappings of a democracy, which is actually motivated and run by the super wealthy and their bought and paid for parties, dedicated to those with incomes well above both the

    working and certain middle classes.

    as proof of this we can refer to the latest attempt at a form of not quite pure
    democracy in the UK, talking about Brexit, though proposed by a member of the ruling party it was possibly the most democratic decision made by the parliament and more so by the people and it being the most stupid decision made by a so called

    democratic public, only proves the system is as credited by both Plato and Socrates one system among a number that was not perfect, but to find and elect a group of wise men to run a government was not only then but certainly to-day an impossibility.

    One has only to look at to-days corruption in government, where (the bag men of K St.) fill the deep pockets of the congress and where large corporations use countries such as “The ROI’, to incorporate, where the corporate tax rate is !5% as opposed to around thirty per cent in the US and was as far as I know never accepted as of yet, by the Irish government , I suppose the deal covers introducing and creating wealth within the Irish Republic as opposed to just accepting the taxable amount, meaning that corruption is widespread throughout the world, it’s UK equivalent is the present arms sales by the UK to the Saudi’s, and used to pound the people of Arabia back into the stone eage.

    Ain’t life grand !

  25. Interesting discussion, however there are too many details left unmentioned.
    The real problem with NUFC has been an obvious lack of good upper management , actually the only upper management has been been reserved for our owner himself, whose knowledge of operating a decent football club is limited.
    Yeah sure he bought the club and is entitled to use it for whatever purpose he desires for a definite profit (mainly to advertise his product, plus Sales of players, tv rights etc.)
    It’s been almost as long as Leeds Utd. have been in the Championship because of poor top management, but they appear to be on their way back to the Premiership.
    Which could well happen to NUFC (a semi-constant championship side like Leeds) unless Ashley can be forced to sell, by boycotting St, James’ Park and away games, it’s the only answer to the problem, take away his reason for continuing without a continuous income from the club.

    I doubt as much as I like the idea of a fan owned club, however now the the Northeast has become De-industrialized where would the money be found.
    No the answer is for the fans to boycott the games starve him out, it almost worked this season, forcing him to show certain games without charge, but I doubt if such hard core fans can be relied upon to do the necessary boycott.

    club, however if we can’t find a billionaire to take over, here within the north east can the required hundreds of millions be found, it would be nice but very unlikely.

  26. Chuck, the problem with Socrates is that he didn’t write stuff down so pretty much everything we have on his wisdom comes secondhand through his contemporaries, and some of it is contradictory. That means the stuff we have on Socrates’ attitude to democracy is filtered through others, mostly Plato.

    One of my recent reads was Karl Popper’s ‘The Open Society and its Enemies‘ and he (and others) certainly seemed to think that Plato had done a disservice to poor old Socrates, and that some of the things he ascribed to Socrates were more Platonic than Socratic. I don’t think it would be fair to say that Socrates was against democracy, just that he saw its flaws with an ill informed electorate and how this could lead to demagogic rulers, or as you suggest, representatives of corporate power who have the big money behind them.

    On the subject of Leeds United, what happened to your idol, Bielsa? or do you have a new sweetheart now? From what you were saying, their promotion was going be a formality last season, but they crashed and burned instead. I notice that they’re in there again though in the fight to get promoted.

    I’ve been playing ‘Corbyn Bingo’ with Bernie Sanders and my ticket is filling up pretty fast. There’s the questions over the Communist honeymoon in Moscow (LOL!), his ‘praise’ of Castro, the deranged cult members who follow him and of course, the big gun of the fleet, the ‘anti semitism issue.’ I don’t think it will move into top gear until after he get the nomination though, if he gets the nomination.

  27. I think Plato was keen to put words into Socrates’ mouth in order to avoid the same fate as Socrates. He could just claim “It was Socrates that said it, guv, not me, honest”.

    It’s hard to tell whether Socrates was or wasn’t against democracy because he liked to wind up the ruling classes and might have said a lot of stuff with that aim in mind. He wound a lot of people. The sophists had it in for him because he openly disliked that they charged for their philosophical services and it’s no surprise a sophist opened for the prosecution at his trial.

    Mind you, Socrates hardly helped himself at the trial.

  28. Yes, there is really little difference between what the greek Philosophers thought and to-days version, concerning democracy and the test of time has proven that to be true.
    In fact it (Democracy) a claim made by so many governments can vary so much , depending for the most part on the needs of the country.
    However it appears to be the one most popular of choices, flaws and all.

    No my interest in Leeds, is mainly based on the fact the club is now being managed by Bielsa, which I thought would have gained entry into the Premier division by now, though there’s a good chance they could get promoted this year.
    He “Bielsa” remains somewhat of an enigma to those of us who don’t get to see how he sets his teams up and the difficulty of many of his reported tactical plays, requiring a group of more intelligent players to execute.
    Of course he has been praised highly by some of the commonly acknowledged
    managers of mostly top sides, though he often leaves clubs following short stays, apparently over tactical and other reasons and it must be difficult to play for such a personality.
    Still I look forward to he and Leeds (who’s problems have been similar though opposite to NUFC) finally arriving back in the top division.
    Leeds overspent, NUFC underspends,

    As for the Bern. who my son is currently working for, it appears those who are in the pockets of the US oligarchs are shitting themselves with the possibilities of
    him winning and then introducing policies that may cost them a few billion or more and are spending money as never before, apparently they believe their own propaganda, even the firmly established Democratic Party, which has changed little and works much like the old Tammany Hall organization that controlled the NYC party, which now is dominated by a left leaning immigrant group.
    Yes hopefully we can get rid of this no-nothing clown “TRUMP”elected by a combination of Tea Party and racist not to mention The electorate college system, where even winning the total vote means nothing and finally prove to the electorate that a democratic socialist party is not another Stalinist regime and one which they will find more beneficial, which in turn will finally bring a more equal society and an awareness to the long time fear of anything but the dog eat dog capitalism they have always known.

    changed little since the days of the NYC domination by the old Tammany Hall
    domination, both they and almost the entire news media far left to fascist are grouping together to stop this Jewish Commie from getting elected

  29. Hugh, so are you making a statement that Socrates was a wind up type guy, who cared little about the possibilities of being executed for his beliefs and Plato used him as a mouthpiece to give Creedence to his (Platos) opinions.
    Which If so, is just a guess no better than than others advanced over time, but interesting, of course we also have no idea why Socrates defended himself so poorly, tired of life perhaps?or a defiant defense of his beliefs even under threat of death..

  30. Chuck, I think Socrates liked to have a pop at the authorities and took a certain delight in winding them up.

    He may well have valued his beliefs over his life. Allegedly he had a chance to escape before taking the hemlock but refused to do so. Instead, he just paid his outstanding debts and drank the poison.

    If Plato is to be believed, Socrates thought only philosophers were brainy enough to govern. Maybe that’s true or maybe that was his way of saying he thought the government at the time was terrible and that he and his ilk could do better. We all think we can do a better job than our governments at times. Or maybe it was just Plato attributing these things to him either way.

  31. Hugh, the way you describe Socrates makes him sound a bit like Chuck. He is an almost mythical figure (Socrates, not Chuck) but a highly distinct character with a coherent set of ideas does emerge from all the different accounts of him.

    Chuck, whether it’s ancient Greece or the present day, not all philosophers are the same so you can’t say ancient Greek philosophers thought this or that as if they all thought the same thing. Ancient Athens is the cradle of the western world though and some things haven’t changed, like the slick Sophists who taught the art of clever rhetoric to the ruling classes for money. On the other hand, Socrates told it like it was for free. The wisest are those who realise that they know nothing.

    Moving on from one great man to another, I often wonder what Thomas Paine would think of the political circus you lot have over there nowadays. Trying to figure it all out is worse than quantum mechanics and at the end of it all, out of over 300 million people, you end up with Trump! At least we only took a few weeks to elect our idiot, it’s a full time job over there.

  32. Chuck, I missed your shorter comment there. As to whether his defence was ‘bad’ Plato’s report of Socrates’ ‘Apologia’ is one of the foundation stones of philosophy and is still discussed 2500 years later, it was only bad in the sense that he was sentenced to death! As he pointed out himself though, he was an old man for those days, when being in his 70s meant he’d lived twice as long as the average.

  33. Actually Socrates could have avoided death, being he was given other alternatives, but as you say looking at his age It’s possible i suppose that he considered death was near and preferred a more interesting way to end it all, or the fact he also had little in the way of any personal alternatives, following his admitted guilt to the charges.
    In which case it would be against all he stood for to avoid the final punishment, certainly someone who’s life was dedicated to finding truth.

  34. Tom Paine the corset maker, from East Anglia and a member of the society of friends, who’s writings inspired so many, (including myself)
    a man dedicated in a similar manner to truth and a political mind which ‘was certainly dedicated to truth and the well-being of the population.

    Also anti-slavery , was described as an Atheist, though he claimed to be a Deist and who’s idea’s were given voice in Common Sense
    built a cast iron bridge which spanned a river in the north of England and became an elected member of the French parliament, too bad he was considered by many as just too radical, obviously at that time in the
    most advanced Colony or Dominion of the British Empire.
    Many like the present day anti socialist’s and Democratic Party members who are all falling in line advocating there’s no way the” US of A” will accept a j
    “Jewish Commie President”
    Ah well, history has a way of repeating it’s self if one waits long enough.

  35. Chuck, Socrates was a very brave man in his younger years, he was a big, strong, ugly bastard who had an excellent reputation for courage in battle, a man who could bear the greatest hardships with discipline and fortitude, and could also drink anyone under the table! As he said in his Apologia, he did not fear death because he has no knowledge of what comes after it, adding that if anyone does fear death, his fear can be based only on a pretense of knowledge which isn’t there. Like Rodney Dangerfield, he also did some good marriage jokes which still stand the test of time, eg: “By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you’ll become happy; if you get a bad one, you’ll become a philosopher!”

    Socrates and Thomas Paine are two of my favourites and their importance cannot be overestimated. Literally, ‘left’and ‘right’ in the political sense comes from the seating arrangements of the French Assembly after the revolution, but it was Thomas Paine and his contemporary, Edmund Burke, who shaped the ideas.

    As for Sanders and smear tactics, it’s all mixed up now so nobody knows what’s what, and much of it is deliberate. You have people on the far right, the traditional anti semites joining up with right wing Jewish groups to call people on the left, even left wing Jews like Bernie Sanders ‘anti semitic,’ along with the risible ‘Hitler was a Socialist’ guff because his party was called the National ‘Socialist’ party. In reality it was cynically named ‘The National Socialist German Workers’ Party’ to lure the working classes away from the real Socialists.

  36. Ah yes,Chuck! It’s ‘Super Tuesday’ over there.The mediocrities on the corporate side of the party have been dropping out of the race and circling their wagons around ‘Sleepy’ Joe Biden as Bloomberg continues to throw money at his own campaign. On the other hand, that rather strident sounding woman on the left, Warren, hasn’t backed down yet and hitched up with Bernie Sanders.

    .

  37. Bernie’s Biden bombshell!

    Now the also rans have dropped out and got behind Joe Biden’s overtaking Bernie Sanders, the last poll I saw was 32-28 in Biden’s favour. I’m just listening to Bernie right now saying that Biden can’t beat Trump. That Liz Warren needs to stand down and back the Bern.

  38. The political revolution began during the 2016 presidential election, the younger people of the USA (mostly Sanders supporters) have hopefully become the instigators of a left of center or a more socialistic Democratic Party and why not, it is in their interest to have a health system similar to the NHS, that and hopefully a free third level education, as few other than the sons and daughters of the rich can afford the present system, which is a necessity for employment and then to have to pay the banks for borrowed money, for half a lifetime is both unjust and detrimental for the country, or any country for that matter.
    Certainly something feared by the wealthy classes, being the party in power for the most part controls the purse strings, which could with the signing of a few bills , reverse the present day capitalist control, by initiating a fair tax system, where less than one percent of to-days population own more wealth than more than fifty percent of the rest of the people .
    Very similar to tat which exists in the UK, at least we don’t have to squander millions on a dis-functional royal family, who despite efforts by both Labour and The Torys, to convince the British people, they pay their own way, anyone with a brain in their head, knows this is untrue, just ask The former “Prince Arry”
    Watching the evening reports via tv, it appears that the so called moderates and former liberal tv anchorpersons have all jumped to
    defend the Capitalist system, with one well known liberal news spokesperson actually resigning from his role, which could be the
    beginning of an Anti-Commie role, for those afraid of change,

    However, the solidarity of the younger generations has lasted throughout the Trump regime and though the older population may never cast their votes to Bernie, the future is guaranteed by a younger and better informed generation, much the same as the British elderly who voted en mass for Brexit, not realizing that those people with darker hues will be around forever, regardless of their vote and the UK will find it a lot tougher dealing by use of the WTT regulations.

    actually resigning

  39. Chuck, the empire is striking back with the Biden bounce. I notice that despite the fact that Bernie Sanders is miles ahead of Liz Warren, her fans are actually saying that Bernie should be the one to stand down, along with a few nasty comments about him being an 80 year heart attack victim who will certainly die in office if he wins. I’m just an outsider but I don’t like that Liz Warren very much, she comes over as a bit of a shrew. I wouldn’t trust her much either.

    On your Whitney Houston bit where you say that children are our future, the thing is that on average, people are getting older, not younger. As I mentioned in a previous comment some time ago, Corbyn has the under 45s over here but it didn’t do him much good because there are so many old people who believe the drivel in the media on both sides of our pond.

    As for the Royal Family, I know it’s ‘whataboutery’ but I would like to see how much the Trumps have been claiming from the state since the Donald became President?

  40. Actually my take on the present situation is one that following three years of having an incompetent bully attempting to run the country, someone who governs via twitter, mostly nonsense, who is basically ignorant of world politics, geography, history and just about any subject other than trying to hustle a buck.
    And someone who makes Boris look good by comparison, well not really as you will find out when trying to earn a living , working within the WTO rules on trade.
    Sure he will come out of this richer than before, but I doubt he will ever get any respect from the public, Trump that is.
    One has only to look at the results of Tuesdays election to figure out why.
    The answer is they are afraid of change, otherwise why did Biden do so well, everyone understands he is not the brightest light on the xmas tree, but know what to expect and to now elect Bernie, would be a further step into the unknown, unfortunately most of the electorate here are as ignorant as those in most countries and subject to whatever the media owners feed them.
    They have been informed by the media, that Bernie is a commie and will
    once elected, change everything that the US stands for (whatever that is) it’s all about fear and ignorance and to elect someone like Joe will be a return to normalcy.
    Of course he hasn’t yet got the nod, but a crooked Democratic Party could just as easy enact another switcheroo at the upcoming Democratic Convention as they did in favor of Slick will’s wife in 2016.
    Which will no doubt enrage the youthful revolution who will return with
    anger in 2024, better to cede some reforms now and somewhat pacify those angry young people now than to wait.
    And bye the way, we have not heard anything yet concerning Joe and his son, a member of the board of a Ukranian oil and gas company, a job that was a result apparently of his father, that pays millions, even though he has absolutely no history of anything to do with either oil or gas , but did have a father who was the VP of the US . a supplier of weaponry toThe Ukraine in it’s disputes with Russia.
    Ah well. lets see !

  41. Chuck, as I said, the so called ‘moderate’ candidates have now united around Biden in what seems like a synchronised move, but Warren will not throw in the towel and unite around Sanders to put him back on top. Maybe she wants to act as a power broker later on in the movie? I don’t know, as I also said, to a non-Yank, that electoral system over there is harder to understand than quantum mechanics. What I do know though is that those Democrats have their own ‘deep state’ which bust a gut to get Shillary nominated over Sanders last time, and they will do the same for Biden this time.

    Behind all the accusations, sleazy ‘professional’ politicians fear losing their corrupt ‘perks’ under ‘Communists’ like Corbyn and Sanders, that’s why they work so hard to destroy them even though they are supposed to be on the same team.

  42. Than goodness ex Mayor money-bags mike fucked up big time on his first debate, which gives one a glimmer of hope that the presidency cannot be bought, after all he managed to change the mayoral limitation from two to three years and was on his private plane to Bermuda every Friday afternoon thru Monday and even though he apologized profusely over his stop and search police policy, he I’m sure thinks of it as a success still, in the war against the poor/darker hued folks. A sleazy shmuck with a lotta the readies !
    As for Warren she would be my second choice, yes she is a bit shrill , but in comparison to the rest, basically decent and fits well with the so called new left, it’s just a shame that both she and Bernie are advanced in years and perhaps when she see’s that she can’t win the nomination, she could throw everything to Bernie.
    As for the candidate of the middle, sleazy Joe Biden, if I were running against him, I would continue to bring to light, the fact being his son enabled him to work for the fascist government of The Ukraine being he had no knowledge of either gas or oil, what it actually amounted too was a job for jr. for armaments from the US, which shouldn’t surprise anyone, just business as usual.
    Ain’t life grand !

    worth millions

  43. Well lets see what happens in the former industrial states of the mid-west, which will indicate who will win the eventual nod.
    Of course there are a lot of union votes there still, which could go to either candidate, but the big money is obviously behind Joe , as are most of the Democratic Party, so in regard to what happens, I believe the average American is simply afraid to take the leap with Bernie, the two party system is all they know and even though Bernie is on the Democratic ticket, having any association like Socialist added was not the smartest thing to do, although credit Bernie for not lying like the majority of candidates.
    Yup the average American only hears Commie, not Socialist, something that is anathema to most, due to the fact the Cold War had a tremendous effect on what Americans now believe, the perfect situation for expanding the US in both it’s trade and created the military industrial complex, at the same time given the best possible environment to expand and exploit it’s own form of capitalism.
    People come people go, little ever changes if you throw enough money into the right pockets.

  44. Bernie Sanders keeps using the ‘S’ word, but the thing is he isn’t even that Socialist anyway, he isn’t going to nationalise the means of production or anything like that so why is he risking all the ordure in a country where Socialism is such a dirty word?

    That Liz Warren is out the game anyway so who is she going to back, Biden or Sanders? and what is Joe Biden anyway? What has he have to offer the USA? He reminds me a bit of Blake Carrington in Dynasty but he’s as dull as ditch water.

  45. Worky
    What is it that makes the US public so anti Socialist ,
    A combination of ignorance, reinforced by propaganda.
    Which has been pro-active by the robber barons from the nineteenth century, until the present, heavily used against the “WobblyMovement” which began in the late nineteenth century and government laws regarding The Union Movement introduced following ww2 .

    Well another rare win for NUFC, against a ten man S’Ampton, on a single goal by the recent French signing, who it’s rumored has fallen out with Bruce.
    It reminds me of an earlier French player Robert, who SBR attempted to
    introduce “tracking back ” too, but without any result, so what happened ? nowt !
    Apparently SBR was satisfied enough with his great passing and goals from the left wing, to attempt to introduce him to defense.
    Making him a local hero to the fans.
    Perhaps Bruce could take a page outta SBR’s book.
    I kinda believe this and a few thousand more boring draws will keep Bruce’s job safe, though he will reap the anger of the fans and due to a take over of the TV networks we no longer receive all of the EPL weekend games, but who the hell wants too watch NUFC and the terribly boring football they play.

    .

    i

    w

  46. The ‘Wobblies’ were certainly attacked and cracked down upon, but, alas, they also had the old problem of the left, disagreements and schisms. I know you’re not a fan of Monty Python’s Flying Circus but even you must see the funny side of their very famous skit on left wing sectarianism in 1st Century Judea in ‘The Life of Brian?’

    On the football, there’s been more attacking from the team with more possession and more shots but Bruce can’t put the ball in the back of the net for them. Some more work is needed in that area but the team have certainly been heading in the right direction in the last few matches.

    Do you mean NBC? Who has taken over what? NBC were doing quite a good job of the football. I watch coverage from all over the world to get every match, I was even watching Kazakh coverage of the Newcastle v Burnley game.

  47. The wobbly were only mentioned as an example as the beginning of a government policy that felt threatened by the then large numbers of Southern European immigrants, complaining that unlike the former north European immigrants , they were all either dangerous socialists or Anarchists, this nonsense had continued up-untill WW2
    The attacks on unions continued with the government and local city and state governments turning lose both cops and national guards on striking worker and we both know well, the cops love to riot and break heads.
    During WW2 the government asked the unions of the US merchant marine to reduce their wages to that of the US Navy, while defence workers were earning big bucks, of course they flat out refused and a rare fact is they suffered the largest losses per capita than the military.
    of course they paid a price, by being excluded from what was known as the GI bill, where all ex servicemen were given free college educations during the post war era and those seafarers were selectively given seamen’s papers that more or less stated they were not commies, while those on the governments lists were refused the papers and could no longer find employment at sea.
    Actually there are lots of similar weeding out processes, one being the attempted deportation of Harry Bridges the head of the West coast Longshoremen’s union, a socialist born in Australia, which raised so much resistance they the (US Govt.) dropped the case for fear of strikes that could effect the country. I could go on……….

    Look NUFCis currently a joke with idiots running the club, who don’t spend enough on players an though I find Bruce to be a decent guy, he belongs with most of the English Managers just another retread. However I understand the a more recent bid has been initiated by the Saudis, this being from different Royal Family member in a bid to sportswash The Kingdom, though I would prefer to see the club owned by the actual fans, question is could they afford it?
    But heading in the right direction, I wonder ?

    Well the tv conglomerate Nbc, which took over the contract recently now charge for all but a select few club games, whereas we got all of the PL games with the former contract owner, it’s a case of squeeze the public, not unlike your tv license charge, not only for the average Joe, but for seniors over 75, who no doubt will find it difficult to afford.
    Yeah I understand there is the possibility of streaming or buying a Dodgy box, but I just find squeezing those retired people as mean and uncalled for and screw the BBC, who have tons of dosh and live the good life on the backs of retirese. and consider themselves to be something special, let them go public without Government handouts , and see how long they last, not only that for christ sake enough with the upstairs downstairs shit and romantic novels (by women and for women) of thel nineteenth century. .
    OK !

  48. Chuck, Thatcher got a fair amount of union bashing done over here far more recently in the 80s but getting back to Newcastle United, call me crazy but I don’t want the Saudi royal family. Ashley’s bad but I don’t think he’s brought flogging, torture and the death penalty to Sports Direct (yet). As you said, ‘sportswashing’.

    I get annoyed at the BBC (and even send complaints sometimes), but it’s a classic Tory party play, to make radical changes but construct them in such a way that the victims of the changes get all the blame and have to sort out all the bother.

  49. Chuck, I forgot to mention re your criticism of the BBC that ‘Upstairs Downstairs’ was an ITV show, it had nothing to do with the BBC, though they did do ‘Downton Abbey’ or whatever the show is called. Usually, you Yanks lap up that sort of thing up, stuff like that brings in a lot of export $s for the BBC ‘Oh we just love your English country houses, your English tea and your funny little English ways!’ and so on… As I’ve mentioned to you before, my sister used to have an ‘Olde English Tea Shoppe’ racket going on in Florida many years ago when she lived there. The BBC probably made Downton as much for the US as it did for it’s domestic audience.

  50. I get these questionnaires a lot from the BBC on screen and the very arrogance of the questions are enough to put any one off.
    Either the question is how can we improve, actually meaning how good are we?
    Such questions as on a one through five answer, five being the highest praise, how trustworthy are we?,
    We are all aware that the BBC is a massive media enterprise, subsidized by everyone uk resident with a tv , but this is neither WW2, when perhaps it was necessary or broadcasting to the Empire, which no longer exists, in I guess at least thirty languages.
    Now I can’t say I dislike the BBC, it does some pretty decent stuff, but I’m sick and tired of the reminiscence shit like Downton Abbey or whatever it was named and others of that ilk.
    As it portrays an era that is reminiscent of a massive wealth difference and a deference given to the haves by the have nots, which can only be described as slavish, not to mention the vast differing range of classes, where such terms as “your betters”, “reaching above your station” etc. were commonly used to remind people of their station in life and which are I’m sure still in use.
    Though it only took a resounding rendition of those well known hymns, ending in On Englands Green and Pleasant Land, to send the masses to the recruiting stations whenever The Empire needed them, that is if they didn’t have enough dispossessed highlanders, starving Irish or Welshmen to fill the ranks. Fact is around half of Nelsons sailors during the sea battle of Trafalgar were Irish

    It’s unfortunate that the real history of the empire was whitewashed and
    as recent as the sixties , when they demonized the people of Kenya for demanding their land back and independence.
    I’m sure the BBC covered that well.

    And were it not for Liverpools Bessie Braddock, would still be unknown, as a matter of fact untill recent court trials by Kenyans who received a paltry sum some fifty years later, for torture and other crimes against them is still basically unknown by the majority of the British population.
    Though we in the US have been little better to our indigenous people, I’m afraid those poor Indians are still portrayed by Hollywood as savages and hundreds of thousands of former Mexico was taken over by force, under the banner of “Manifest destiny”

  51. As for football, I’m surprised to read of your preference for cheapskate Ashly over some Saudi prince with unlimited dosh, having had to watch a once famous club resort to the present cashless relegation threatened side playing an ugly defensive game, when throughout it’s history it has relished some great center forwards, leading an attacking side.

    Supposedly talks are advanced, but complicated, meaning no doubt, Ashley does not want to cede total control over certain aspects that possibly reflect advertising etc. “who knows”! and this attempt may end up as another failure, but due to the collapsing markets as a result of the latest pandemic disease he could be forced to sell, I hope !

  52. To be fair, the BBC do make better programmes than most of the other terrestrial channels in the UK. They make a lot of trash programmes too of course. Saturday night viewing, for example, is just a dumbed down ratings war with ITV and it makes me want to vomit, but BBC4 is the best for documentaries and BBC1 has, in my opinion, the best dramas on terrestrial. If the BBC was subscription and at around the same price as the licence, I’d probably subscribe.

    I don’t think I’ve ventured onto the ITV for many years, aside from the occasional channel-hopping fright. I expect Betty (her of ‘t hotpot) is gone now.

  53. Chuckles, radio wise, I listen to the ‘British Empire’ part of the BBC, the World Service, as it is much better than the domestic part, they seem to leave it alone.

    I don’t watch Downton Abbey, I don’t like it, though I really did like Upstairs Downstairs (the original 1970s one, not the later remake), a lot. The original Upstairs Downstairs and Downton Abbey might seem to be very similar superficially, but in reality they are like chalk and cheese in terms of their social message. Downton was written by a Conservative peer with a distinct forelock tugging message, whereas Upstairs Downstairs was a very well written picture of social inequality in the ‘fin de siecle’ times eventually leading up to world war. Hugh knows how much I like my 70s TV programmes, it was a golden age.

    ‘Jerusalem’ (‘in Englands Green and Pleasant Land etc…’) is certainly not supposed to be a jingoistic anthem to ‘send the masses to the recruiting stations whenever The Empire needed them.’ It was a poetic masterpiece written by William Blake. Like his contemporary, Thomas Paine, Blake was a revolutionary sympathiser who despised the tyranny of British rule in those days. He also hated the ‘dark satanic mills’ built by the plutocrats of the Industrial Revolution. It brings in the apocryphal story of Jesus’s visit to Britain, the book of Revelations and ‘Armageddon’, and how a new Jerusalem will eventually rise from the ashes of such satanic times.

    “As for football, I’m surprised to read of your preference for cheapskate Ashly over some Saudi prince”

    Yes, Chuck, and I made my reasons perfectly clear. Ashley is one thing but being owned by a family of medieval butchers is another level entirely. Don’t you get that? Seriously?

  54. Hugh, I hate to break this to you but Betty’s dead!

    On the BBC I think I was banging on about the current affairs side since the Government bullied it into taking on Conservatives like Sarah Sands, Robbie Gibb etc in key positions. The BBC news and current affairs department is now the Daily Mail.

  55. Worky I’m devastated to learn Betty’s dead. Next you’ll be telling me Annie Walker is too!

    My parents watched Coronation Street so my only knowledge of it is from the 70s really.

    Current affairs is a bit different but both ends of the political spectrum seem to think the BBC is biased against them, or at least that’s how it seems if the public comments on their ‘Have Your Say’ articles are anything to go by.

    As to NUFC, I tend to agree the football we’re playing has improved a bit lately. We’re attacking a bit more and we’re probably relatively safe. I reckon there are at least four or five teams worse than us so we should be. There have been a few seasons in the last decade when I’ve struggled to find three.

  56. People who don’t think that the BBC is biased seem to assume it’s obvious that because other people on different sides say that the BBC is biased, that shows that it really isn’t biased but that isn’t obvious at all.

    As for Coronation Street, they just drag things out forever now. Coronation Street was the vision of a man called Tony Warren and it was a really great show when he made it but now it’s a bit like a band when they lose most of the original members and they’re shite compared with how they used to be, not that I’d know because I haven’t watched any soaps for many years now. It used to be very funny.

    We’re not finishing well enough yet but I think that Bruce should stick with Gayle a little longer, he’s certainly given Joelinton enough time. I’m sick of the target man thing.

  57. Hmm ! quite a number of recent entries, nothing like a bit of criticism of things British to get people rushing to it’s defense,( rather like playing a rendition of Jerusalem) quoting the Beeb as a moderate and honest source, which in truth is, with it’s certain attempts at subtlety, laughable.
    Though some of it’s interrogators on late night political programs can be devastating to ‘those being interviewed,
    However the long running soaps , Eastenders etc. has a very limited audience here in the US, which I put down to the difference in lifestyles, though I did like and watched some of the early episodes of “Shameless” and have to admit enjoyed “The Office” the difference consisting of a more physical humor , looks etc. and was of course something different.
    And yes the US media giants frequently copy certain British shows, which seldom match the originals, however lately there has been a dearth of anything watchable, from either side of the pond.
    And one cannot place blame on either political party for enforcing (it’s in the national interest stuff) like the total media blackout from (radio, TV and printed matter ) that took place during both the “Kenya Emergency” as it was referred too and others and that shameful war in the south Atlantic, which could have reached a pre war settlement , what the hell difference would it have made’.
    The problem stems for the most part through the enforced separation of the various classes, which has existed forever and shows little in the way of change.

    As for NUFC, I see nothing wrong in having a great goalscoring No. 9#, having had some of the finest, this present Brazilian though not a goalscorer, does a decent job of holding up the ball, but without other goalscorer what’s the point,
    Whereas Rondon could do both.
    Face it the team consists of about twenty five percent of keepers,(no not goaltenders) the rest need replacing , we know it won’t happen under Asley, but perhaps the Saudi prince may splurge enough Petro dollars to buy a competitive side, I don’t hear anyone complaining at Man. City or other clubs financed by petro-dollars.
    Being I’m getting on in life I would like to see my favorite side as a competitive one in the EPL, before I kick the bucket., so screw Ashley the owner who’s goal in life is to screw enough people (especially those who work for him) and hopefully a new owner could hire a decent upper management team.
    Is that too much to ask ?

  58. Chuck, I make no apologies for defending brilliant men like William Blake or Thomas Paine. As for the TV, Eastenders used to be quite good when it started too, Den and Aaaaange behind the bar at the ‘Vic’, Nick Cotton putting Mary the punk ‘on the game’. Great days. I know that you have an American version of ‘Shameless’ and ‘the Office’, which I know nothing about except that they exist. They had the American Office on TV over here but I didn’t watch it, I didn’t watch the British one much either, the British one did capture the ennui of the towns clustered around London like Reading and Slough but it made me cringe too much after a while.

    ‘Back in the day’ as they say nowadays, you’d copy our comedies and we’d copy your game shows, but with more modest prizes. Over there you’d get a massive 7 litre ‘muscle car’ like a Trans Am on ‘The Price is Right!’ but over here we’d get a 1 litre Mini Metro. More recently, the US have given us TV masterpieces such as ‘Geordie Shore’ (Jersey Shore) and the Apprentice. Fair play to the BBC with the latter, they got one of the few people in the world who can be as odious and offensive as ‘The Donald’ himself to be the boss, Lord Sugar. Sugar’s favourite pastimes include posting racist tweets and comparing Jeremy Corbyn to Hitler.

    You’re long overdue in your latest mention of the ‘Mau Mau,’ I knew it was coming eventually though. As for the Falklands, the UK couldn’t just let a jumped up little dictator occupy British sovereign territory, and it also set in motion the events that led to a return of democracy in Argentina as a bonus. Your lot sponsored Galtieri’s dictatorship and his ‘disappearences’ of the leftist opposition, just as they sponsored all the other right wing goons in South and Central America. Although Thatcher didn’t get along with Galtieri, of course, she did get along famously with another US backed dictator down there, Augusto Pinochet in Chile.

  59. Worky,
    I don’t recall ever mentioning anything untoward about Thomas Paine, in fact he is one of my few heroes, nor did I ever mention the US version of “Shameless”, or “The Office”only stating that there were US versions made , which I never watchedI only stating that I enjoyed the early versions of the British series, which were all I viewed and the fact they made you cringe was I’m sure the Idea (don’t you think) though I was under the impression it related to an area of the west midlands.
    And your take on the fact we copied your comedies is not quite true, yeah some perhaps, as for our prizes being larger, why not we are a richer country and I suppose the at the BBC may have though that such American crap as Jersey Shore and The Apprentice were worth copying is testimony to their ignorance or lack of originality, though i can’t say I ever watched the apprentice so I really can’t give any comment, but if it starred Donald Trump, how good could it be ?

    And look, the sheep ranching Falkland Islands nine thousand miles away from the UK, with nothing of real value could have easily been ceded to the Argentino’s being it’s only a short distance off Argentina
    .saving the lives of a good number of youngsters from both opposing sides and a shit load of money.
    And where do you come off calling it Sovereign British Territory FFS
    because you may have planted a Union Jack there some hundred’s of years ago and dumped a few people and sheep there and not bothered about it since and used that as a reason to declare war ? C’mon!
    Yeah! Thatcher loved to cause mayhem, both in remote areas of the world and at home, yet you appear to back her in that useless waste of both lives and money.
    And yes the US has forever meddled in both Central and South America something I know about and continues too, being I ended up in Chile in 1973, just before the Alende fiasco, Organized by our asshole Secretary of State which was just as stupid and also caused both murder and torture plus a division between Chile’s population.
    And hey! I’m surprised she(Thatcher) actually got along with anyone.

  60. Good to see you two playing nicely again its been awhile!
    Hell you’ve covered some ground from Socrates and Plato Greek Philosophers
    to Angie and Den of EastEnders and everything in between, But here is a list of things you may have missed (fit them into whatever topic you wish)
    Vietnam, Korea, Cuba, The middle east in general, segregation, civil rights,
    and being “World Policemen”
    Tv Tom Mix, Hopalong Cassidy, Roy Rogers, Lone Ranger, Wagon Train, Gunsmoke, Rawhide. Bonanzar, The Virginian, The High Chaporal,
    The man from uncle, Perry Mason, Ironside, Starsky and Hutch, Murder she Wrote, Dallas, Dynasty, and “bloody” Dick Van Dyke
    I did like Jack Benny and George Burns but they were more radio “back in the day”
    Sorry Chuck but the Yanks always give the impression whatever we’ve done you’ve done it bigger better or have had more of it. When really we are not very different at all and at the moment I think we are both heading into a lot of the brown stuff.
    As far as NUFC are concerned they have gone. They are just great memories of the past which will never return. From the top Ashley to the bottom the fans they have settled for cheap and second rate. Harder for me to understand away from football is how they also believe Boris is their answer.

  61. Chuck, ceding the Falklands would have ignored the virtually unanimous wishes of its residents. It would be like the Polynesians taking back Hawaii against the wishes of its people (assuming they wanted to remain American).

    Don’t forget, the Falklands wasn’t settled at all until Europeans arrived there. The Argentinians did have a spell of control there after that, but the US kicked them out and it has been settled by the UK ever since.

    I don’t think proximity is a good argument for ownership. If it is, then I’ll be helping myself to my neighbour’s wine whilst he’s away in Scandinavia.

  62. Let me think was there not an island that had its people removed by the Americans to build an air base Hmm?

  63. List of American television series based on British television series

    I rest my case.

    As I said, I don’t know anything about the American version of Shameless but I really didn’t like the British one, though I used to love the show it was stolen from, ‘Rab C. Nesbitt’ back in the 90s.

    Both the Apprentice and Geordie Shore are both made by independent production companies, not the BBC, and Geordie Shore was originally made for MTV. The BBC used to make its stuff in house, but then it was forced into using outside production companies for many of its programmes because of the Conservative government’s obsession with everything being farmed out to private companies, and its conviction that the BBC is a hotbed of loony lefties. The BBC used to let people experiment and create some highly original shows but everything is about the bottom line and focus groups nowadays.

    On the larger prizes, the UK eventually to the opposite extreme with the advent of new telephone technology and the premium rate text with shows like ‘Who Wants to be a Millionaire,’ which offered a top prize of £1 million. When you copied it over there, they only got $1 million, despite the fact that the US is five times the size of the UK.

    Chuck, go down and tell all that to the 3000 Falkland Islanders, I’m sure thay’ll be delighted at how you think they should have been ruled by a military dictatorship who made its opponents ‘disappear.’ I don’t think it would go down too well.

  64. “Let me think was there not an island that had its people removed by the Americans to build an air base Hmm?”

    Good to hear from you again, Nutmag! how have you been doing?

    Diego Garcia / The Chagos Islands in the Indian Ocean. It’s an overseas territory of the UK, but all the native Chagossians were kicked off by the UK and left to live in poverty so the US could have a base there called ‘Camp Justice.’ The irony is laughable.

    The link below is a film about it by John Pilger.

    Stealing a Nation

  65. “Chuck, ceding the Falklands would have ignored the virtually unanimous wishes of its residents. It would be like the Polynesians taking back Hawaii against the wishes of its people (assuming they wanted to remain American).”

    Hugh, I don’t think that would be quite the same as Polynesians used to live on Hawaiian Islands until their Queen was overthrown and the islands were taken over by the US. On the other hand, the Falklands were unnoccupied rocks in the sea.

    There is also the fact that hardly any Argentinians are indigenous to South America anyway (less than 2%). They are mostly Spanish, or Italian like Fabricio Coloccini, so they are no different to the British who have been living on the Falkland Islands. Incidentally, Coloccini is still playing in Argentina, he’s 38 now.

  66. Nutmag, OK, I’m going to bring all those Westerns you mentioned into the discussion now. Those shows you mentioned were postwar American propaganda, they were how the postwar Americans saw themselves, especially ‘Gunsmoke’ with the blue eyed heroes in the white hats dispensing justice to the evildoers in the black hats. Yet although they were suppposed to be setting the moral example, regrettably, they usually had to break the rules in the end as it was an evil world out there and it was necessary for the greater good. Vietnam (which you also mentioned) and all their other shennanigans in SE Asia, the Americas and so on was the reality.

    Gunsmoke was also the favourite TV show of the father of neo conservatism, Leo Strauss.

  67. I liked The Virginian when I was a bairn. I wasn’t too keen on many of the other Westerns Nutmag mentioned. As for Dick Van Dyke, well, the less said the better. Diagnosis Murder is so bad it’s actually unintentionally funny.

  68. worky et all,
    Nice to hear from y’all, regardless of the fact most comments made are of a critical nature.
    Actually I am not that aware of many of the shows mentioned, having spent a lot of time elsewhere or for some reason or other, simply missed them , in which case I really can’t give a knowledgeable answer.
    However the colonists of the Falklands are somewhat similar to those induced by the UK government’s of various times, when The British Empire ran roughshod over the natives of many lands and islands, subjugating them and attempting to convince them that it was in their interest to become members, of at that time the largest Empire yet known. of course any refusals were delt with in the usual manner, which I wont go into, being you would probably reject in any case, that is, all except “Nutmag”, who served as a national service soldier in Kenya
    during the emergency, don’t take my word for it, or the books written about it or the facts I mentioned, concentration camps, torture and killings which took place, while protecting a small number of settlers, of which possibly less than fifty were killed, as opposed to estimates of well over 150, 000, Kenyans’ depends on who was keeping score.
    the so called leader and eventual PM, following the deal that was worked out “Jomo Kenyatta”, was safely held in a selective place, as someone who could be capable of doing a deal with, which eventually
    took place and the upper class white privileged settlers, were allowed to hold onto Kikuyu lands where they still farm, growing coffee and other crops., don’t believe it ? check it out.
    Now that’s but one example of how many of Britains colonies were run and the wealth in trade from those protected markets can still be seen as one tours the nations capital London.
    Of course we are leaving out the fact that for three hundred years British slavers traveled the middle passage UK to Africa, loading slaves for the Caribbean and Americas, bring molasses rum and sugar for British ports, a lucrative business that mede many wealthy, the joke was when Britain finally banned slavery, all slave owners who held slaves were re-immbursed by the government for loss of property to the tune of billions in to-days currency.
    Plus many of those family’s , the former slaveowners to this day remain wealthy from that lucrative trade, many more are still in business Tate and lyle, Fyffes etc., check it out !
    No wonder the general public were never informed of these happenings how could any country admit to such things, in it’s history.
    And as early as the nineteen fifties many of the descendants of those slaves were brought to the UK to help rebuild it following the destruction of WW2, and only recently any number of which couldn’t produce proof they were in the UK legally, were deported to places they had never been too, mostly in the Caribbean .
    It was stated recently via the BC, that following Brexit that even your next door neighbors the citizens of the ROI, may not have the right of free travel, work or residency in the UK, yes the same people who though not officially at war with Germany, came in the thousands to work in factory’s helping with the war effort plus many joined the British armed forces.
    don’t believe it, check it out !
    I’m sure this will be denied by some, as it has been by British government until it was brought to light by those who suffered, taking their cause through the British court system, the official results which resulted in meager amounts of which the government admitted guilt, but gave as little information as possible.

    p

  69. Worky Yes I’m doing fine, working on kissing this country goodbye. Nearly all my family have moved abroad with an even split between France and Australia.
    My son, daughters, husbands and wives grandsons and granddaughters and families (that’s some list) as I need to added the great grandchildren are settled abroad having the professions and trades to do so. Added to them is a nephew and niece and families. Things are very well advanced for me to end my life’s adventure in the sunshine of Aus. Do not want to end my days under Tory rule. First time I’ve walked away from a fight but with even Geordies voting tory I give up.
    Looking forward to a bit of time back in the sunshine.

  70. Oh Chuckles, here we go again, over the same ground.

    Your animus seems the be about the British rather than the oppression of Imperialism and Colonialism. Taking the Falklands example as you’ve started banging on about all sorts of British Empire stuff now including your old favourite, you seem to be completely uninterested in the fact that Argentina itself is a former colony, populated mostly by the descendents of Spaniards and Italians and built on slaughter and dispossession of the indigenous population. You also seem to be uninterested in the fact that Argentina was ruled by a military dictator who made his opponents disappear. Most of all, you are completely uninterested in what the fate of the Falkland Islands’ 3000 inhabitants would have been. Unlike Argentina, or your own country for that matter, no indigenous peoples were killed or displaced in the Falkland Islands. If you wanted to get angry about Nutmag’s example of the dispossession of the Chagos islanders, which is still an ongoing thing, I’d completely understand; or perhaps you’re avoiding that because that also involves the US?

    Pretty much all of Europe has a disgraceful history, as does the US, we know that, so what is your real point?

  71. Chuck
    Let me first correct you on a couple of facts, which I think I did once before.
    I was NOT National Service the reason being, knowing I was about to be called up I signed on as a regular soldier. My reason for this being if conscripted I could be drafted into any occupation they gave me. By signing on I kept my own trade which I did for the duration. One of my better decisions that I never regretted.
    All conflicts will throw up many different opinions.
    What you are not saying to go with your figures is that The Mau Mau killed and maimed more of their fellow countrymen and tribesmen than anyone else.
    This was not a country rising up against an oppressor. It was part of the Kikuyu tribe at first forcing their beliefs onto other Kikuyu with enforced oaths. If village chiefs and others refused at first they would find their cattle with their back legs tendons cut this practice was soon used on people, even one young goat herder.
    The killing and maiming spread to whole villages like the Lari massacre where 84 were hacked to death in one night with pangas large chopping knives used by Kenyans.
    I agree things could and should have been handled better by Sir Evelyn Baring who I believe was out of his depth and liable to knee jerk reactions.
    I was not used in any military opps as I was in the team mapping the Northern Province with Survey of Kenya. The troubles stayed around Nairobi and the Abadaires I did come in contact with detainees we had to work on our base camp in Nairobi who on the whole seemed to be pleased to be safe and out of the fight.
    Administering their own oaths went a long way in ending the troubles for the government
    Yes in every conflict there will be wrong doings mistakes lies injustices Look again where they start and where they end. The blame game is to easy.

  72. Nutmag, I’m very happy for you with your emigration plans, though I’ve heard that there’s a bit too much sunshine down there in Australia nowadays, and they have a Conservative government too, though they call themselves the Liberals down there.

    Labour has retreated behind city walls, Tyne and Wear is still solid Labour but it’s towns like Darlington, Bishop Auckland and Sedgefield that moved over to the Tories.

    As for the Mau Mau, I am no Imperialist, and I respect the right of oppressed peoples to rise up against foreign domination. However righteous the cause though, there can be no justification for burning women and children alive in huts and hacking them to pieces with machetes if they tried to escape (the Lari massacre). I raised stuff like that Chuck years ago, but it seems to be a totally black and white affair to him with angels on one side, and demons on the other.

  73. Nutmag
    It bears little the fact of why or how you got there, only that you were there whether as a draftee or through enlistment.
    It also appears you believed the official policy and the fact you were on some kind of mapping course, as if the country hadn’t mapped the areas of Kenya previously when allocating Kikuyu owned land to upper class British settlers, plus the fact you admitted to using prison labor to do the heavy work, as apposed to being starved and beaten in a concentration camp, means little.
    This my friend doesn’t change the facts and yes the conflict was about the return of Kikuyu land allocated

    to British settlers, plus the fact there has always been tribal differences in the country, however the conflict was never between the Kikuyu and other tribes, simply a return of the land appropriated by the British , which until to-day has remained in the hands of those same settlers, the rest was obviously the official propaganda story presented by the powers that be., ah well !

    it also appears

  74. Worky
    is it essential that I don’t discuss the horrors of British imperialismImp, a history so horrible that it’s not taught taught in any curriculum in the British school system or admitted even to-day,
    Colonialism the taking over of half the worlds undeveloped countries, using local labor to enrich the Empire and modern force of arms to ensure control, a history that has obviously been ignored by people like yourselfl being perhaps you don’t want to believe it .
    You claim I never mentioned that Argentina’s early Spanish settlers were cruel, no less cruel than the early British settlers in North America , plus the fact that the Spanish conquistadors murdered millions of the indigenous peoples of what is now considered Latin America, apart from Brazil, which was run in a similar fashion by the Portuguese.
    And to say I don’t make similar claims is nonsense, I often mention the horrors of Slavery and the policies of expansion through” Manifest Destiny” Though there are claims of using disease infected blankets given to American tribes, Including those residing in what was colonial Canada and all you have to do is just look at the columns above and you will find criticism of the US in many, mine is a two way street, and I think you just find it a bit difficult to swallow.

    d Destiny

  75. You we’re right of course to warn Nutmag about moving to Australia, a country that is racist in nature look at what the natives have had to endure under the government there, ever see the movie “rabbit Proof Fences”
    A country so obsessed with racism they imported thousands of children following WW2, from the UK, a major scandal as many of them still had parents and everyone knows about the free passage there or at least the cost of ten quid per family, while ignoring those who wanted to emigrate there, but were not of the required pedigree, they also brought A shitload of rabbits essential to the growth of certain grasses, one of which was clover, which was destined for sheep grazing.
    Eventually having no natural predators they then overrun the country, to which the answer was disease, namely maxi mitosis, which became a Rabbit pandemic spreading back to the UK and to this day there remains a dearth of wild rabbits from there original areas of habitation throughout parts of Europe and if you haven’t seen the devastation
    caused by fires and recorded high temperatures and still want to go there, better wake up.

  76. Well I must have hit a nerve or something to provoke that outpouring of bile
    What a pity you weren’t in Kenya in the 50s to save them spending all that money on setting up The Survey of Kenya and having to bring in the army surveyors to do the field work, Ordinance Survey could have really done with your help. ‘Mapping course’ indeed you really know as much about it as Ashley knows about football.
    ‘Hard labour’ helping out in the kitchen, at times we sat with them and peeled potatoes we talked and laughed together so I must of been doing ‘hard labour too.
    I know that kind of ‘true’ image does not belong with your theory.
    No I’m not saying we were all angels but faced with some of those sights and acts don’t judge anyone till you’ve faced and shared the same.
    Nothing I can say will change your beliefs on British Colonialism being all bad, so you must forgive me if I just ignore you.

  77. So it’s Australian rabbits now? Chuck, this is your technique for grinding people down until we can’t take any more!

    I wasn’t trying to warn Nutmag about moving to Australia. I assume he knows far more than I do about what its like over there and if he wants to move there I’m very happy for him and I hope he still posts on here.

  78. Worky Of course I don’t believe it to be Utopia I have been. I just can ‘t face the last years of my life enduring long grey cold damp winters and no hope of a Labour government and I certainly don’t believe in Boris and his brave new world, or people who say we can stand alone. The choice was France or Aus my French isn’t that good and I’m too old to learn and anyway I love sunshine as hot as it comes. When I was in the desert I was convinced I’d been a nomad in a previous life I just loved it.

  79. Nutmag, I used to travel and I gradually noticed that everywhere was starting to look the same anyway, eg quite a few years ago now, me and a couple of friends stopped over in Thailand for a few days on our way to Vietnam, so I asked some locals where to go to get some the best Thai food, they sent me to a local Tesco megastore which had a Thai restaurant in it. The only thing that changes is the weather. Wherever you go, utopia nowadays is Tesco, Starbucks, McDonalds etc…

    It looks like football has been cancelled until further notice. As a Newcastle United fan, I might have looked at this as a blessed relief a few weeks ago, but in the last few weeks I was starting to get through a whole game without nodding off and we had a fairly long string of winnable games against teams like us. They say that the CoVid-19 virus would peak in June, so does this mean that the whole of the rest of the season will be cancelled?

  80. Nutmag, I hope you enjoy Australia. A friend of mine was out there working for three years, first in Sydney and then in Melbourne. He quite enjoyed it but he was glad to move out of Sydney because he said it was very expensive. He’s a bit like you in that he likes the sunshine but he took care out there due to the hole in the ozone layer that sits above the country.

    I could cope with winters here a bit better here if we had a guarantee of good summers, but we don’t.

    Chuck, I’m not sure what we can do about our colonial past. Like any country that’s ever had any power on the world stage (and lots that haven’t too) we’ve made mistakes and followed regrettable paths. Protecting the Falklands wasn’t a mistake, though.

  81. Worky I don’t want to get overly sentimental but my utopia was not any one place, but the people I shared them with. Places and people are intermixed music, smells, tastes can bring back those memories. Unfortunately as I am now at an age greater than my parents, grandparents, or great grandparents reached. There is not many of the people I shared those places with around anymore.
    I am very lucky to have a really close and great family who I’m sure I’m going to spend a lot more utopian moments with.
    Thanks to the internet we are all in constant touch and still have some great get togethers.

  82. Hugh
    Is it my country right or wrong, and is it right to deny the truth by just omitting atrocities from the empire’s history ? plus subsidising the wealth of the Downton Abbey crowd, through using their labor and natural resources .
    And of course I understand that makes certain people jump to the defense, or take a defensive attitude whenever anyone describes anything contrary to the official
    explanation,
    But I understand the fact that the real history of the nation (Empire) is filled with myths and flag waving , why do you think it no longer exists and at least you understand that, to deny this only amounts to hypocrisy.
    On the other hand many European colonists acted worse though not on the same scale as The Empire and I certainly understand that the US and it’s early wealth was built on the sweat and labor of slavery and cheap imported labor, Chinese and following the Irish genocide of the late nineteen hundreds , (one can hardly call it a famine, when the normal exporting of Irish foodstuff to the UK continued as usual.meaning at certain ports the Society of friends( from the US) were importing Indian corn, as a gift to provide to the starving Irish, while other nearby vessels were loading foodstuff for English ports.
    While the British government policy , was not to interfear in the economy, how generous is that and tell me how many in the Uk are even aware of anything untoward like over one million deaths through starvation and a country of over eight million was reduced to the present day number of around six million, which includes the statelet of Norn Iron .
    Of course there are those who understand this and others through no fault of their own, continue to voice the official government line, being that’s what they learned, well, actually omitted from the official history, as in the case of the more recent Kenya emergency ,
    Of course that tiny Anchorage (Diego Garcia) for arms laden ships in the Comoros, a British former territory and who deported the natives in order to hand it over to the US as a safe haven that covers possible conflicts in nations surrounding the Indian Ocean.
    Unfortunately these same dispossessed people have been lobbying the UN for generations asking to return to that island, perhaps not an atrocity, but certainly
    an abuse, by both the UK & US.
    as an Anchorage for dod only knows what kind of arms.

    it,

  83. Nutmag, sentimental? you reminded me of Marcel Proust with his tea and his madeleine cake there. I don’t think I’ll make it to my sixties, the hospital keep wanting to put new bits in me to keep me ticking over but my life is so shite I don’t even know if it’s worth it.

    Hugh, I think you’ve read Adam Smith? I would say that Imperialism came from Capitalism’s need for constant expansion. With the Industrial Revolution, the exponential rise in the capacity for production and the rise of the Bourgeoisie, the old nation state idea ran out of road and more markets and resources were needed to feed the machine. At the close of the 19th Century and the dawn of the 20th there was the so called ‘Scramble for Africa’ and we have seen an echo of this in recent years with the rapid expansion of China.

  84. Soh can you explain , why the killing of possibly thousands of innocent servicemen, on an Island over nine thousand miles away in the South Atlantic ,the sinking of a large cruiser and it’s crew heading for mainland Argentina, quite possible as many servicemen from both sides, as there were local residents, over a piece of land apparently not good as it was deserted on being discovered and only good for sheep raising.
    There was room for negotiations and it appears backing from the UN, but unfortunately the UK refused to bargain in good faith, which had they, could have saved both money and lives, thanks again Maggie!
    Another example of a declining Empire that wasn’t about to hand over a useless few islands with no real economy other than sheep ranching and catching a few fish, for what reason and if you come up with one, you can tell it to the British and Argentine mothers who lost their lives for a very, very questionable venture. .

  85. “Is it my country right or wrong, and is it right to deny the truth by just omitting atrocities from the empire’s history ?”

    Chuck, I don’t get it, what is your point? Hugh isn’t ‘denying the truth’ at all. Where are you going with all this? You’re just reeling off all this stuff, accurate or not, but you’re not providing any kind of insight whatsoever, just impotent, obsessive rage. We can’t change history.

    And by the way, Chuck, the Captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo, admitted in 2003 that the Belgrano wasn’t ‘sailing away’, he said it was manoevering and that he had orders to sink any British ship he came into contact with with seaborne exocet missiles. I’m sure that you would have loved it if he’d succeeded in his mission.

  86. Worky
    One again you are right in regard to colonial expansion in Africa I can still remember reading about one of the last scrambles for territory by the Belgiums, French and British , called I believe “The race for Falasha” which gives one a particular viewing of how European governments thoughts about the dark continent
    Unfortunately for Africa to-days European countries don’t have to send troops there but it is definitely in their future, from the US specifically, why ? as a barrier to the recent inroads made in certain African countries, mostly those rich in natural resources, by the Chinese.
    Yup ! they will continue to be bought and sold through African leaders who when confronted with their crimes, simply head for the French Riviera with enough dosh to last a fairly decent lifetime.
    Since post colonial days little has changed in Africa, computers and modern technology has replaced the militaries, apart from the French who seem to employ troops to their former colonies frequently and to a lesser degree so do the Brits.
    An interesting case was that of the former South Rhodesia/ Zimbabwe, where the Brits., angered by the return of former African land to those who once possessed it, caused major damage both politically /financially and other, to an emerging
    African nation, intent on releasing themselves from their European masters.

  87. “Another example of a declining Empire that wasn’t about to hand over a useless few islands with no real economy other than sheep ranching and catching a few fish.”

    What about the people on the Falklands who didn’t want to be ruled by a military dictator? The island wasn’t ‘useless’ to them, it was their home. You seem to have no concern whatsoever for the people who lived there and what they actually wanted, whereas I would argue that should be the primary concern. Presumably you’d rather we just meekly handed them over to a torturer and murderer like Galtieri.

    You mention the UN wanting to intervene but they intervened in the beginning and demanded the withdrawal of Argentinian forces. They didn’t want to listen. The UK had a lot of support around the world for its actions. Reagan wasn’t so keen because he was a bit of a fan of Galtieri.

    I think I’m missing the point with your colonial stuff. Yes, there are plenty of regrets and nobody is denying it. Or at least I’m not. We are in agreement about that bit. But what should we do? Spend all day hanging our heads in shame about the empire-building our predecessors did? I have not personally tried to subjugate or invade another country (with the possible exception of Portugal when I was on a lads’ holiday in the early 80s).

  88. Worky

    The UK, just couldn’t let a jumped up little (little ?) dictator take over Sovereign British territory, (your angry words) why not? Would they be any worse off than they are now ,
    Certainly the costs of going nine thousand miles with the largest military force since WW2 and taking heavy losses by both side could be considered to be the worst possible outcome, whereas the future of a few families doing nothing outstanding would be better served by having a government close bye, not to mention the costs of a protective force to keep those jumped up little dictators from another attempt to take over a few hundred settlers who would hardly know the difference and have resources in Argentina, to health shopping Etc.
    Face I it was a fiasco both militarily and otherwise, and the direct blame rests with the UK, for it’s intractable nature in regards to talks.

    As for the Belgrano of course his orders the commander of the Belgrano were to take on and sink enemy vessels, as were the orders of the British Invasion force.
    The Submarine (a modern day vessel), who had the Belgrano in its sights apparently called the UK for verification as to whether or not to sink it, which I believe was give by that woman, as she was referred to by many.

    i

    s

  89. Worky
    you just don’t get it !
    No I don’t agree with the UK’s choice of a mini war, which could have been avoided, and no, what makes you think I would have enjoyed any vessels whether Brit or Argy hit , when the point of my argument was war could have been avoided.
    so please don’t put words in my mouth.
    And if you don’t want me to comment on things which may embarrass y’all, just ban me from the blog, hey truth hurts sometimes, but it’s not such a great idea to repress it because you don’t like it.

  90. Chuck, you are the one who is angry, I was just stating a fact. Galtieri was a rather stupid, tinpot dictator who completely misread the situation, he was the one who wasted all those lives. I had a friend who was a bit like Galtieri when he was drunk. He was a 5’5″ computer geek but he tried to start a fight with Nigel Benn one night. If anyone invaded American territory, I’m sure the response would have been even worse because your lot seem to need ten times as many bombs.

  91. A stupid tinpot dictator, as you describe Galtieri, if that’s not the description of an angry man , I don’t know what is ?
    I’m just wondering in that case how you would describe (Maggie) PM Thatcher, a more than equal opponent, that I believed relished the opportunity to take down an inferior opponent and who was not, it appears that concerned about the cost, both in public funds and lives lost, though it did appear to boost her almost non existent popularity,

    Yep ! only luck and Argentinas belief that the situation could lead to further talks on the issue, prevented them from planting a stronger military presence, which may have resulted in a total war including the Argentinian mainland.

    With this in mind, is it not time the UK returned the ousted Chagos Islanders to their homes in Diego Garcia instead ousting the arms laden vessels sitting at anchor there

    And make sure every British overseas territory regardless of size has a local bank, Which had it’s own rules, carefully drafted by it’s sponsor, the large London bands in order to ensure every wealthy person in the world has a safe and tax free haven in which their wealth can be preserved, tax free.

    Oh ! sorry you already have that policy in place I believe.

  92. Well ! it looks like the sudden reality of our recent Corona virus has finally got our attention and as a result scared the bejesus outta everyone.
    Looks like a bit of controlled isolation is in store for those who take it serious, though it may take a bit of government force and the introduction of more stringent controls, I was amazed to see pubs in New York filled with patrons on Saturday, which I find to be crazy, though I suppose everyone expects to avoid becoming infected, yeah !
    Well good luck with that, especially when both the UK & US are both way behind in regards to both testing and developing a cure.
    Of course it was ok when retained within the Chinese Mainland, however now that the epicenter is Europe most governments (who were aware by January) are using various local and national authorities to impose the most severe rules, until they catch up with such places as South Korea, using drive by testing, a much safer and quicker method of detection.
    Something to consider when voting next.
    Soh! try and stay safe regardless of the fact we both have Idiot’s as head of state, no not The Queen (though an argument for that), i A time for isolation and perhaps a bit of meditation.)

  93. I’m in a high risk group but if it kills me, so be it. I won’t miss much.

    I heard that the reason CoVid-19 hit Italy so hard is because Chinese companies had taken over lots of Italian leather and textile companies in northern Italy, then replaced many of the local staff (around 100,000) with imported Chinese workers. There was a constant traffic between Northern Italy and Wuhan province with lots of direct flights and so on. I’m not totally sure about the details of that though, I heard something about it on the radio once and I also read a story about it online.

    On the Democrat election, I notice that there has been a growing campaign calling for Bernie Sanders to stand down. The current virus situation has been a godsend to that particular gambit as it now gives them the chance to say that if Sanders doesn’t stand down, then he will be responsible if people get killed by catching CoVid-19 at the polls. That last twist in the plot is still in its early stages though.

  94. Further on the subject of viruses, there’s been a series of viral tweets by Conservatives going around. They show photos of empty supermarket shelves in Donald Trump’s America and Boris Johnson’s UK saying something along the lines of ‘this is what you’d get if you voted for Communists / Socialists like Sanders / Corbyn!’

    How does that one work?

  95. Well if people believed Labour was to blame for the financial crash, surely the tories must take the blame for this lot lol

  96. Nutmag, the Tories never do anything unless they also have a full strategy on where to pass the blame if it goes wrong.

    It looks like Trump has finally cracked the CoVid-19 crisis, he’s going to deal with it by bringing back ‘the Yellow Peril’ and spreading the virus of Sinophobia throughout the USA.

  97. Yup ! Looks like the two idiot’s voted as leaders of both the Uk&US, are struggling, neither one with the necessary amounts of grey matter needed during this the present threat.
    Both made to look like fools when compared to countries like South Korea, who quickly began testing, while using a drive bye system, which prevented further contact while awaiting ones turn in what are to be large crowds.
    It has become an unintended joke, the first consideration being appropriate protection of those currently employed at areas so designated,
    A lack of everything needed, testing- areas, sure it’s been stated that both the Present. & PM, have both been tested, but told unless we the people are sure we are (according to conflicting opinions) infected but told not to bother those testing, being it will be weeks probably before
    any real system to combat this deadly virus is organized properly, even as world health organizations are available with simple inexpensive examples.
    Of course it’s the nature of politicians to score points and appears each is investing in any number of methods, to claim possession of having the better system, when they aught to be condemned for a lack of preparedness, being aware of the virus almost three months ago, but were afraid of investing the necessery funding, that is as long as it was contained within Chinas borders.
    Well good luck to all, as to depend on our brilliant leaders is to depend on a couple of idiots, struggling todo a job far beyond their capabilities.

  98. Works,
    Joe Biden, the career politico, picked as is usual, as a kind of insurance policy, as is the case for most vp’s, along with whatever else they can bring to the table.
    Certainly not my choice, I doubt if he would make a decent dog catcher.
    However why am I not surprised,
    I’m afraid Bernie is a step too far for the American electorate, having been bombarded for well over a hundred years by the Robber Barrons, with a steady condemnation of anything with the term socialist, which through ignorance resounds as commie, plus a belief in the two party system, with each party containing basically the same spectrum of voters, well perhaps the Republicans feel they are in favor of smaller government and business and believe in the principles of the constitution and bible with equal fervor .
    Yup ! a lifetime politico, whose son benefited from a deal with The Ukraine Govt. earning millions, not bad for someone who knows fuck all about oil & gas , but is a member of the Ukrainian board in a situation echoed by some as “oil for arms”, In other words Joe would ensure the arms were delivered as long as Jr. got his.
    Nah ! just another sleazy lifetime politician who like Trump is a consumate liar .
    On the other hand many regard him as a badly needed moderate, Uncle Joe as he attempts to portray himself (hopefully not the original Uncle Joe Stalin)
    But the question arises could he be any worse than what we now have An idiot who governs through tweet and who’s real abilities became obvious by his indecision in dealing with the present Pandemic.
    Who on live TV made the claim that everything was going to plan, but having been tested himself, now instructs the public to wait and not overwhelm, the present testing system, which as far as the general public are concerned is non existent.
    Hopefully now one would assume he was un-electable for a second run, but his supporters ( should there not be a system barring morons from taking part in any elections) obviously still believe he is there to drain the swamp, which is the congress who dispense the funds and collect the rewards from the “K” st. bagmen,
    Ah Well. ! it’s an entrenched system, which is not about to change.

    Joe would ensure the flow of arms to “The Ukraine”presently fighting a war with the expansionist Russia

  99. Whats this about ^awaiting approval, approval of what ?
    If I am being subjected to someones approval, then this may be my final, say so

  100. Bye foks !
    Being someone obviously erased my last entry, without reason, then I refuse to continue feeding y’all with information from a different perspective, which appears to annoy some.

  101. Chuck, calm down. It got trapped by the WordPress ‘Akismet’ anti-spam plugin for some reason, so it got held in a queue. Not sure why it got trapped but I manually approved it.

  102. Hugh
    Apologies, thought it may have been the content, but on re-reading it thought , nah !
    Ok, thanks for the explanation

  103. No problem Chuck. There are a few anti-spam plugins on this blog and 99.9% of the time they get everything right. Just occasionally they get something wrong and a lot of the time I can’t really see why. It won’t delete posts when that happens but it puts them on hold for Worky or I to check.

    The swear filter always had a problem with Scunthorpe.

  104. Chuck, you used the ‘f’ word, which is still on the banned list. We used to get the odd potty mouthed mackem so it was to stop them more than anything.

  105. “Potty mouth” ? a perfectly legit anglo- Saxon utterance, that gives emphasis to most situations, which is fairly common in the speech patterns of most of to-days youngsters, but if it annoys the word police, so be it !
    How’s everyone making out, now that our lives are all threatened, I have to admit, some of the descriptions of those that are effected are no more than at a minimum, making it difficult to self diagnose, however that’s all we have and if we decide we are showing those symptoms, what do we do next, knowing there’s a whole passle of “very Important people” ahead of us in line
    Remember this next time you decide to vote.
    The future for many does not look good , according to projections we are still in the early stages of the virus, which if I understand correctly can change and transform itself and don’t forget we are still in the early stages.
    Look, it appears that China has managed to stem any increases, which is a good sign and those countries who were totally unprepared can at least gain the information, concerning a quick test drive- by(from the Koreans) followed eventually by the magic bullet (hopefully a cure) however there will be many thousands of deaths and no one has anything close to that magic bullet.
    By that time we will be looking at a totally transformed world and perhaps a totally changed world order.
    There will be massive bankruptcy’s and social order in many countries will be tested,
    Governments may not be capable of restoring the same social systems and especially following Brexit, which leaves the UK alone outside of
    any trading blocks, having to deal under WTO’s trading rules.
    That’s of course not the worst scenario, countries may go broke and I’m sure those scenarios are being discussed,
    Right now most people are suffering, job losses, infrastructure’s shut downs, the market hitting a downturn with no relief in sight.
    And here we are suffering under sub par leaders who have little in the way of comforting the public on offer, hell ! I have no clue as to where or how I could get a check whether I’m infected or not, but isolating myself and washing my hands, with no Masks or any other counter virus stuff, The politicos, whose lack of action have us in a bind and for the most part in the dark and have yet to catch up with China who without fear or favor has stopped the virus from increasing, “draconian measures”,sure but success over this rapidly expanding Pandemic will eventually happen, the sooner the better.
    Hopefully out of this Pandemic, we may also agree on the total elimination of all forms of the present day exploitation of fossil fueled energy and other wasteful and dangerous farming techniques, shouldn’t be difficult for humanity which is about to take a massive hit in numbers lost, better to prevent the befouling and eventual self destruction of Earth , innit !

    And look Worky, the Sunderland folk or mackems as you call them, lets not be so hard on them, as I miss those Deby Games and face it they cover the area sometimes splitting families from the twelve mile distance, between clubs.

    t

  106. Chuck, our instructions here are to simply self-isolate for 7 days if we get any symptoms. They’ve made a point of saying we should not attend any medical centres in the first instance. We’re only to do that if we start to keel over.

    I believe this CV-19 is a fair bit milder than standard flu in most healthy people. The problem is there’s no antiviral to protect the elderly and at-risk people with, which is why CV-19 is at least an order of magnitude worse for fatalities.

    It’s possible we’ll never completely get rid of this in the same way we can’t completely get rid of normal flu. An antiviral may be the only answer. Then maybe we can keep the fatalities down to the same level as standard flu.

  107. Chuck, you didn’t see the comments we got from mackems.

    35 labs are working on a vaccine, one in Boston said that it’s going to start testing fairly soon, but I know it takes a long time to bring out a new drug, even when there’s an emergency, a lot of it is tied up in clinical trials and such. Donald Trump doesn’t seem to realise this yet, he talks about it as if it can be done in a few days as scientists roll their eyes in despair.

  108. Perhaps this may be Natures answer to the fact we appear to be destroying the earth and if we are to continue it won’t be long before our actions will confirm this, so a destructive virus that ends all human life would in fact benefit Mother Earth, no !
    Earth, the only Planet we know of within the Milky Way Galaxy, that can support human life as we know it.
    Whether there is any truth in this statement or not, this present Pandemic, may be natures way of giving serious warning that to continue as we are is certainly not going to work, hell we are all aware of the warning signs, but are not about to give up on the comforts of burning gasses and fossil fuels to generate power, and fight over.
    As for nuclear energy, what does one do with the waste, other than send it into space,

    Could it be the present Pandemic is nature (or whoever s) warning, face it the planet needed something drastic enough to get our attention, before we begin implementing the essential changes needed, as opposed to continuing with those planet destroying methods of poisoning the food systems and extracting minerals that contribute to our poisoning the planet and it’s life forms.
    Soh ! lets not blame the Chinese, but congratulate them for their response to the virus and instead of farting around with senseless rules and absolutely no real information get everyone tested and of course a magic bullet (cure) instead of making comparisons country to country,
    learn from each others failed efforts
    .

  109. Worky Just watched a Professor Jason Leitch, National clinical director for Scotland On BBC Breakfast TV.
    . Of all the so called experts that have blathered on this guy is the only one who talks pure simple truth.
    Thought you being an I.T. whiz you could possibly get it from BBC I-player and put a link up. I’m sure Chuck and others would find it informative
    Stay Safe

  110. Nutmag, Hugh’s the real computer boffin. I found BBC Breakfast from this morning on the iplayer, but I don’t think it will be on there for long as they only seem to have the one from the same morning. Also, it doesn’t say which bit is Jason Leitch.

    I also found a couple of alternatives below, the second one is a one hour phone in with Jason Leitch on Scottish BBC radio.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/gTqh8rQXRcdZ7pZ50T7g9M/professor-jason-leitch-answers-your-coronavirus-questions

    https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1mrGmQbLXkLGy

  111. Chuck, it wasn’t God’s judgment, or mother nature’s, they didn’t have heavy industry and overpopulation at the time of the Black Death. It was caused by poor hygeine practices at a ‘wet’ market where dead carcasses, live animals and even wild animals were all closely circulating together and allowed a virus to mutate. SARS in 2003 also started in China in a similar way and is from the same family of viruses. In both cases they thought that Bats were the original carriers. They do some strange things with wild animals over there and though they have brought in legislation, sometimes people just ignore the rules as they haven’t been strictly enforced.

  112. Worky
    Believing in natures ability to intervene when confronted by certain situations or events is entirely different from a belief in “god” and his/her ability to confront similar situations and checking back , it appears I never once mentioned any ‘god’ so lets just leave him/her out of the equation .
    As for The Chinese, the very people who gave us so much, who in the Middle Ages the 1400’s the country sent a fleet of ships some as long as 400ft. with beams reaching one hundred and fifty ft.wide.
    They were searching areas of East Africa and the countries surrounding the Persian Gulf, but apart from a small number of trade goods and spices found little that interested them and discontinued their expeditions.
    Don’t forget this is the country that had already introduced a monetary system that backed it’s paper money with silver etc. certainly not the country both you and Trump presently describe, “They do some strange things with wild animals” ?,
    And sometimes they fail to strictly follow the rules, which could be said of any country you care to mention.
    Look one has to give credit for things achieved, face it a country with a population of over a billion, has as far as I can see done a wonderful job
    in stemming the rise within it’s own borders and to criticize them as opposed to learning from them would in my umble opinion, be the thing to do.
    I mean Worky, you’r statement above is very little different from Bush’s ,
    lets blame the Chinese !

    one has

    .
    However

  113. Chuck, I don’t think we have to see everything through the lens of potential racism or blame, and likewise there’s no reason to turn geographical facts into an excuse for racism.

    But facts are what we have to see.

    The wet market conditions in parts of China are rich breeding grounds for certain viruses, notably SARS and CV-19. The lack of hygeine, the Chinese obession for fresh (just killed) meat, the dense population in places, the reliance on ‘traditional’ medicine … all these things contribute to the propogation of viruses.

    That’s just the way it is. And make no mistake, China needs to be encouraged to reconfigure their wet markets or the next disease that comes out might be even more deadly, assuming this one doesn’t kill us all of first.

    Yes of course it’s wrong of Trump to turn something like this into an international point scoring game with xenophobic and racist undertones. But the two things don’t belong in the same conversation in my opinion. One is the factually established origin of a particular disease and the circumstances in which it was allowed to thrive and the other is the desperate political ramblings of a bumbling US president.

    If we don’t want to be in this position again we have to address all aspects of CV-19, its origin and how it spread through the entire world.

  114. OK Chuckles, to balance things out a bit, Maggie Thatcher’s drive to deregulate even made the cows go mad over here in the 1980s, and started a public health crisis when it transferred to humans so western countries can do bad things too sometimes.

    In other news, Tiger and Rhino populations are being driven down to critical levels because many Chinese still think that Tiger penises and Rhino horns are ‘medicine.’

  115. Worky
    Cows in the UK are never treated for Mad Cow disease, Apparently due to the cost ,(unlike the ROI), unless there is a serious outbreak, a constant irritation to the ROI, where outbreaks of this disease (possibly listed in the feed as generated by eating something labled as protein) happen occasionally from contact with infected cows imported to NI, which could in fact be from eating parts of other animals and we are all aware that sheep carry the gene of scrappe. So don’t think of China as being the only country that ignores certain health risks and as far as blaming the Chinese for reducing just about every wild animal in Africa, perhaps you should look at some of the stories from countries that license the ability to kill elephants and other rare animals to wealthy ((Great White Hunters) for a small fortune.

    Hugh
    Are you accusing me of seeing everything through the lens of racism, if so “that’s a cheap shot”!
    I am addressing both the speeches of Trump, who is using China as his whipping boy, it’s a political game he plays constantly , as for Worky’s statements, just angry retorts !
    Though it scares me sometimes and thank goodness for the stability of the only present leader with a brain in his head, something that neither of us can boast of at present, having two idiot’s in charge.
    There is no more reason for calling this Pandemic The Chinese Disease than it was to label the great flue epidemic of the early twentieth century
    The Spanish Flue.
    Nowt to do with this subject, but to-days BBC News listed the countries which by 2050 would list one to ten as the most powerful economies, with the US listed as third following both china and India, with what I think of as a nationalistic choice The UK, listed at 10th place, do you believe this to be likely, certainly if Brexit begins with a decent agreement with the EU, however if the UK leaves without an agreement
    it’s dealing under WTO rules and having watched the circumstances

    surrounding Brexit itself and the fact Boris is presently in charge leaves one wondering what the hell is driving such an ill defined and unknown
    future.

  116. Chuck, my point was that science should proceed without sentiment.

    It looked to me like you were saying we shouldn’t blame the Chinese for this. Up to a point you are correct of course: a bumbling fool like Trump shouldn’t be using something like this to score political points off the Chinese and of course people shouldn’t be beating up the Chinese just because the virus may have originated in China.

    But if the science determines this started in a poorly run wet market in China then they should be strongly encouraged to get a grip of these things. We have a right to expect that because this affects the whole world. It can’t just be classed as an ‘internal affair’ to China. If that classes as blame then so be it. I’d similarly expect the UK to get the blame if something like this emerged from a poorly run wet market in Billingsgate (or wherever).

  117. Just curious, how are y’all dealing with the Plague.
    Personally I’m attempting to follow the advice (little enough as things go) by isolating myself, other than leaving my apt. for necessities.
    Things are as quiet as if we had just had a giant snowfall that prevented people from leaving their homes, just without the snow, weird !

    Fact is those who earlier had taken little interest in the present condition, have quickly realized the risks involved, except there are no places to find either gloves, masks or other useful equipment, not to mention the general unpreparedness, but our fearless President, not knowing any better uses his tv time to enhance the Wonderfull leadership we are receiving (it’s just unbelievable)
    Being a octogenarian I qualify as having a priority over younger and assumedly healthier youngsters, however I still wouldn’t have a clue as to how to get a test .
    A situation that brings us back to politics and to re-examine the fact that people defend the most used of systems “Democracy” when few understand it’s simply a system where everyone from the dumbest to those of genius status vote whether to receive or reject or elect, whoever or whatever. In other words are there more idiots than those of genius, I think yes, but what could be fairer, perhaps a governing group that had proven to be better decision makers, or beg-nine dictators
    And Brexit went a step farther a (pure) democratic decision, given to the entire electorate, which was supposed to register the opposite result. One that PM Cameron had fully expected, signifying that Democracy is by no means the system claimed by it’s advocates,
    Oh ! I know how about a true Monarchy, where Arry can have a role due to his royal lineage, though the thought of his old man in charge is worse than even Boris, so folks we only have The Donald to put up with for a few months, you guys are stuck with both Boris and the monarchy, ah well !

  118. I can’t speak for everyone but I’m staying in for the most part and only going out for essentials, such as food. Then again, that’s pretty much my life anyway. I’m a bit of a hermit and my only regular social outing would be a Monday night pub quiz, which of course we can’t do now.

    I’m a bit OCD at the best of times and I wash my hands a lot as it is, so I’m covered there too.

  119. Hugh
    as I recall there was a serious case of Mad Cow disease, spread from English cattle in the nineteen eighties who had ingested body parts of other animals specifically sheep and goats, plus everyone is aware of scrappy, which is contained in sheep, which has caused along with poor sanitation throughout the Slaughter Houses within the UK, Apparently it has been fed to cattle through bought cattle feed and labeled as protein.
    Did the UK then begin to change it’s system on this being discovered, NO !
    Could their be a repeat of this particular situation, where thousands of cattle had to be slaughtered etc., absolutely !
    What I’m saying is be careful of blaming China for its “poorly run wet markets” when in defiance of the EU and other markets, the UK refuses to implement a medical plan that keeps it’s Beef healthy and is a constant threat to the ROI by exporting them to NI, on the hoof, resulting in a possible threat of contagion .
    Perhaps you could get the attention of the Chinese government in regard to their wet markets and I can give Boris a call to complain about the lack of health of their beef and dairy herds.

  120. I forget much of the history of CJD now. I know we culled a lot of cattle and stopped using bone meal and such, but I’m patchy on the details. If we screwed things up and our slaughterhouses were responsible for its origin then we absolutely should take the blame and should rectify the situation. If we were exporting infected produce then of course the rest of the world should come down on us like a ton of bricks (I have a vague memory that some did).

    Likewise with CV-19 and its origins.

    You’re saying I should take care blaming China for CV-19 when the UK refuses to keep its beef healthy, but I don’t see why one has to happen to the exclusion of the other. The pursuit of healthy food markets is justified wherever it takes place isn’t it?

  121. Chuck, could you please explain that bit about the mad cows again as I didn’t understand it? eg you can’t ‘treat’ cows for BSE whether it’s Britain or Ireland. Some of it is gibberish eg ‘plus everyone is aware of scrappy, which is contained in sheep, which has caused along with poor sanitation throughout the Slaughter Houses within the UK, Apparently it has been fed to cattle through bought cattle feed and labeled as protein.’

  122. Chuck, as for the plague, I’m pretty much like Hugh and my glorious return to the quiz world has been cancelled too. I’m supposed to be extra careful as well but I have to go and and get food. It takes longer now as you have to hunt around and take what you can get if you go shopping too late. On the positive side, it is nice to walk through quiet streets and roads in London which are usually full of diesel fumes and wankers.

  123. Worky
    Do you understand the fact that poor animal husbandry and feeding cows or any vegetarian animals parts of other animals should be classifies as criminal behavior, which it possibly is to -day.
    Not to mention, the fact that Slaughter Houses in below standard conditions should not have been tolerated.
    Or the fact that 177 human beings lost their lives and four and a half million cows had to be slaughtered, in order to stop a system from continuing, even though the ministry which handles such cases attempted to deny any guilt on their part.
    Thats what happened and is undeniable, it is also criminal. The UK attempted to continue with it’s practices, however a ten year ban by members of the EU, to the entry of UK beef was put in place.
    And at presen/t we are unaware of how the virus appeared or who was responsible, but the history of The British MCD is clearly described and there’s no denying it was both due to poor animal husbandry and the enforced feeding of parts of other animals to cows, that’s 177 humans and four and a half million cows that were killed, should there not be blame placed on what occurred then. ?
    As we are still struggling with the origin of what started the present pandemic, and to condemn and place blame on the Chinese, who apparently have successfully stemmed the spread of it, is not really clever to criticize sounds a bit like our renown idiot/liar who governs by twitter..

    /
    /

  124. Last night we experienced a torrential rain-fall in NYC, nevertheless I decided there would be less people on the streets and in the markets. and the fact I had a bit of Cabin Fever.
    Walked about twenty or so blocks did a bit of food shopping, plus visited my PO Box.

    Of course due to the rain, there were few people around, but now I am wondering exactly how so many people had been effected job wise, as all we seem to get on telly is rambling account by Donald on what a good job he is doing and attempting to impress that this too will pass.
    If it’s not Donald, its his honor The Mayor, or the only one who has a clue the NYS Governor Cumo, attempting to arrange both beds and temporary hospitals, unfortunately neither the Mayor or the Donald have clue one, guess it takes a situation like we have to separate those with a brain and those without.
    Everything is a bit crazy, who will open, either medical facilities, restaurants, drug stores and the fact concerning taking a test for the virus seem to be as difficult as winning the lottery.
    There is a decided lack of any preventative gear, such as face masks gloves etc., but I guess the rain may have washed any live remnants of the bug and staying close to home can’t hurt.
    However any mention of what to do apart from washing ones hands and remaining as isolated as possible is all we have been fed.
    That and the same old shit that Londoners are fed when their leaders don’t have a clue is about the resilience of New Yorker and I suppose the same shit is being used on Londoners, like Churchill walking amid the ruins of bombing smoking a big cigar and commenting on the resilience of Londoners.
    Ah well my plan is fuck that resilience shit, do whatever you can on your own to avoid becoming host to the virus and stay at home a lot.
    I sincerely wish anyone reading this crap to take care and look forward to more nonsense from me as that’s my intention.
    Later. !

  125. Well here we are in NYC, now the epicenter for those effected in the USA
    Washing our hands like crazy and isolating ourselves from our neighbors.
    Most Markets are open and fairly well stocked, though that may change.
    The big drug stores are also open, some 24hrs a day.
    Restaurants are open for deliveries and take -out but only for the evening meal.
    It’s almost impossible to find certain items, such as face masks (which I hear are a waste of time) and certain hand washing soaps.
    As I mentioned in an earlier statement I mentioned the Elderly (which group I fit into) were supposed to have priority in regard to testing procedures, but I have no clue as to where or when and am not about to go searching, but believe that isolation is the best way.
    It also appears not everyone who is infected dies nor is it a death sentence, some recover and who knows, what comes next.
    It also appears the leadership in a lot of countries, are not doing the job expected , but you can be assured those in positions of wealth and power have had their tests taken care of.
    Guess His Royal Majesty the heir to the throne has been infected which

    means he doesn’t have to go around shaking hands anymore, though this may in fact be a ploy to take him out of the firing line.
    Afraid none of us has clue one about how extreme or length of time this
    virus will plague us, but the worlds homes kitchens, cafes, pubs and stores will be cleaner than they have ever been, but the fact there is no known cure, apart from China curbing the growth rate and in cases reducing the number infected , wouldn’t hurt to learn how they managed to do it, being most countries are having a real difficult time.
    Ah well, got eighty one years chalked up and looking for more, but not if this is what to expect, time for the UN to get it’s act to-gether and impose an organized body to deal with our meddling with nature, as I’m sure this virus had a reason for existing and expanding.

    i

    i

  126. Chuck, the vast majority of those infected will recover. The mortality rate is about 4% on the official figures but they only count people who have tested positive for CV. The real mortality rate is about 1%, they think. That’s 10 times worse than standard flu (0.1%) but that’s because we have antivirals for standard flu but not for CV (yet).

    You’re wise to isolate, though, because the majority of deaths have been in elderly or infirm people.

  127. Chuck, I know what happened better than you do, I was there. I remember how many a row was started when husbands and boyfriends jokingly suggested that their wives or girlfriends went for a test to see if they had ‘mad cow’ disease. Like their mentor, Fred Hayek, Margaret Thatcher, Keith Joseph and Peter Walker didn’t see regulations as a tedious but necessary precaution to protect us all, but as a part of the iron grip of the state which held their corporate sponsors in bondage, and Conservatives still think the same thing today, as do their corporate sponsors. The fire at Grenfell Tower in Kensington was a far more recent example of such contempt for regulations. The same idea was one of the major forces driving a right wing Brexit too, a ‘bonfire of the regulations’ to use David Cameron’s words. However, I just don’t see where you are trying to go with this debate now?

  128. I was speaking to my friend on the phone a few days ago. He like to go to hot places like Cambodia a lot. He was saying that he wanted to go back there (he was there recently) as CoVid-19 doesn’t seem to like places where the temparature is over 33°C and humid (he said 33° but I don’t know why). I reserved judgement as I’m the kind of person who likes substantial evidence, though he is very intelligent and doesn’t usually talk bollocks unless he’s drunk and he was driving a truck for work at the time, but late last night I found that MIT had done a study suggesting just that.

    https://www.firstpost.com/health/coronavirus-outbreak-warm-and-humid-weather-can-slow-spread-of-covid-19-cases-says-mit-study-but-precautions-still-necessary-8184481.html

  129. “You’re wise to isolate, though, because the majority of deaths have been in elderly or infirm people.”

    Hugh, you’d be a lousy diplomat. The truth is that all four of us who have participated in this discussion are ‘high risk.’

  130. Interesting article, Worky.

    Standard flu is more common in winter and maybe CV-19 is too.

    There may be other environmental things about winter besides the cold: there’s less sunlight (and vitamin D), we spend more time indoors etc.

  131. ‘Interesting article, Worky.’

    There was only three links about it on the interweb. One in the Washington Post (the American one, not the Durham one), but you had to subscribe to that to read it, and the other two were Indian. I’m intrigued though because my mate mentioned it days ago when it wasn’t published anywhere and I don’t know why he said 33°C as that’s an odd figure that isn’t mentioned anywhere.

    MIT, Oxford and Imperial College all have great reputations in the academic world but even so they’re still at the thrashing around in the dark stage.

    My doctor gave me some super strength vitamin D jellies to take so I should be ok for that now, I’m like Dracula in the winter.

  132. Chuck, Prince Charles might have got it off Prince Albert of Monaco, I would imagine that they both do a lot of shaking hands.

    ‘Brexit’ and ‘Megxit’ seem like a distant memory now, Brexit will be ready to kick back in when all this is dying down. It’s going to be like the 14th Century, just one nightmare after another.

  133. Well interesting reading, now that we are all pseudo-experts on what’s now named “Covis 19” or summat similar.
    Apart from the fact here in NY with two big mouthed politico’s his honor The Mayor and of course The Governor, who has apparently grabbed the reins, even outshining Trump (who is constantly on tv bigging up his role,) which portrays himself as Dr.Feelgood even indicating when the “covis 19
    virus will soon be under control and thank goodness that someone was placed (a knowledgable medical doctor) next to him on the dias to correct the many medical if not all of his medical

    claims, just making it up as he goes along, yet the man has apparently maintains a solid forty percent positive voting public.,
    Which indicates the intelligence of the US electorate.
    I would be careful in that case listening to our fearless leader, knowing well he comes out with one lie after another talking about a subject he knows fuck all about and has been a joke since day one and just doesn’t have any understanding of how the world works, but doesn’t prevent him from voicing the most ridicules nonsense.
    As for age groups indicating those over retirement age may be more susceptible to the virus, appears to be another gaffe, with youngsters outstripping the elderly in the death rate.
    Hell, apart from the odd new pair of glasses I have seldom visited a doctor in the last ten year(s and when I recently decided that I won’t get to Europe this summer I decided to take care some dermatological stuff and realized with the introduction of Obama-care, I had no idea of how to go about it.
    The same thing applies to “covus 19″, as it appears there’s little known about how it came about (plenty of theory’s and theorist’s) but nothing specific and it may take longer than Trumps speculation of around Easter and who seems more concerned about the economy than the death rate.
    Of course he will do whatever is necessary to have the markets zooming skyward around November, election time.

    As far as the elections are concerned,” Uncle Joe Biden) who appears as the most likely of the two present contenders may be in for a surprise
    that he could be challenged by NY State Governor “Cuomo” who has been the most viniferous and hands on leader projecting a massive hit on the general ares surrounding NYC and in general has been very helpful in demanding the necessary equipment, including setting up temporary field type hospitals , hard to find ventilators and the required gloves, masks and gowns and other requirements to combat this rapidly spreading virus.
    Somewhat reminiscent of the biblical plagues, with fires destroying large parts of both California and Aussie, now “covis 19 ” yup folks it’s about time we stopped fucking with Mother Nature, these are nothing but warning signs, that if we want to continue living and at the same time destroying the planet, perhaps we should re-think that one.
    Ah well, lets see what to-morrow brings !

  134. Chuck, I’m very glad you have been in such rude health over there, and I hope that you are indoors. Over here they have been reporting that the US now has more cases of CoVid-19 than any other country (though it is very large), and that Boris Johnson has it now and is leading the country by teleconference. I have self employed friends whose work has been cancelled completely, but they were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that they won’t receive any help until June, and people trying to claim Universal Credit have phoned in only to be told by a recorded voice that they are in a queue of over 100,000. It seems that one of the biggest problems in the reaction to this virus in both the UK and the US so far is a lack of testing, even for doctors who might be needlessly stuck in quarantine when they could be treating patients. Also, even when Doctors are working, there isn’t enough protective equipment to keep them from getting infected.

    Worst of all though, the TV is really shite nowadays, but I am fighting my way through an excellent book called ‘the Origins of Totalitarianism’ by Hannah Arendt, it’s pretty heavy going though as no quarter is given to the non-academic reader.

  135. Hugh Don’t know if I’m one of the four you refer to as taking part in this discussion If so I’d make it three and a half.
    My life seems to have been pushed up a cul-de-sac and everything is on hold. The last year is strangely surreal.
    Health wise at the moment I’m as fit as a Butchers dog hope all of you are likewise.
    I’m becoming more and more convinced that I have already had Covid-19 back in January together with my wife and neighbour. Fortunately I live out in the sticks on the edge of a small village, step out the door and I’m in the country. (but I’d still rather be in Aus).
    Even so there is a big queue outside the cemetery and we’re all in it ‘and of the four I’m nearest the entrance’
    Stay safe!.

  136. It appears as I broke ranks and took my twenty to thirty block walk, that there were more people doing likewise, (it must be a pain in the ass to have to walk dogs), but when asked (during phone calls) being in the new mega -infected area I tend to come down on both politicians and the way things have been (organized/disorganized), being I see little change apart from Donald explaining the most difficult disease cures, when (covis 19 )has yet to be fully defined and anything near to a cure, something that follows a definition, though the Donald has a firm belief in the present cure for malaria , being some relative I believe who teaches at MIT and being a Trump, is obviously the smartest person he knows, the logic is that of a ten year old, hey don’t blame me , I didn’t vote for the clown, however he maintains a forty percent faithful voting block, which in it’s self explains why we elect idiots.
    There are now lines forming outside some markets, others want the business and don’t care, six feet apart is ok on sidewalks but there should be restrictions and fewer people allowed to shop at the same time, being isolation is as advised the best policy.
    Unfortunately chaos reigns at the higher levels, when listening to our so called leaders, it certainly separates those who advocate what most would consider to be the most sensible policies as opposed to those using the air time to talk stupid shit and big themselves up.
    Still no sign of either medicated hand wash or masks, which is criminal and I believe we could take those deemed responsible to court, but I suppose those (the buck stops here) responsible are now effected , both ‘bonny prince Charlie” and “Boris” have contacted the virus, though that may be a ploy to take them out of the firing line, hey ! who knows.
    And of course the powers that be are denying that anyone wanting to get a test , that they are available, then I would certainly like to know where and when.
    Ah well it’s not unlike a gamble and suppose that self isolation is the best remedy until there is a proven magic bullet, which cannot be expected any-time soon, as for taking the remedy or cure as advised by our idiot President, fugedaboughdit !

    o

  137. I believe that The Guardian describes best, the role played by Trump, as a political opportunity, that is best described as faulty and at worst lies.
    It’s paraphrased not word for word, but I’m sure you get it,
    My question is what are the 40 odd % of positive Trump voters thinking.
    Better like Boris to go isolate himself, though there’s an election coming up in November and being the jerk has no shame, simply uses the media to electioneer.

  138. Chuck, it’s 2 metres, 6’6″ or alternatively, just imagine a basketball player lying down straight inbetween you and the next person. As for the rest, yes, we know about Trump but I get a really bad feeling about that Biden chap too, something that goes beyond the fact that he’s a corporate democrat. Perhaps people can start feeling the Bern again after recent events and he can rally in the second half? If he does though, there’ll probably be some jiggery pokery no one outside the US understands that makes Biden win by 1 in the end. Then, the young Bernie supporters will be so pissed off they’ll go to their rooms and sulk instead of voting for the awful Biden and Trump will scrape another four years. Happy Days.

    Nutmag, you can’t say you’re “as fit as a Butcher’s Dog” in one line and that you’re (literally) at death’s door the next!

  139. Worky I meant by age I have been in the queue much longer than most.
    Does anyone else get the feeling this is Boris’s ‘Falklands’. I’ve read on other blogs ex-Labour voters saying how impressed they are with his handling of the crisis.
    Wonder if they will remain impressed when they find out who finally pays the bill?
    Same ones as last time and that was ten years and counting.
    See Ashley and his PR team have been making a hash of things again, but I suppose its a case of bad publicity is better than no publicity.
    I didn’t get involved in the mad cow discussion as there are many other cases of bad judgement and skulduggery that have cost lives tobacco, lead, asbestos, stone dust in the mines, even mercury back in the day. What about the great ‘internal combustion engine’ which has killed more people than any war, more animals than any disease and polluted for years. Who do we blame for them?

  140. Was watching part of the series “Democracy Now the discussion concerned, the recent two trillion in loans made to our-selves and added to the national debt. (Don’t ask !) The only thing is, it’s now worth (some say more than six trillion) how could that happen, you may ask, unrestricted spending, for a number of years; followed by the bill, and who do you think then pay’s,

    It’s a joint agreement being Dems aren’t very different from their counterparts, and to make a buck, being all 50 Senators voted yes !
    Show most people an opportunity and they will grab it
    Of course, not everyone added a begging letter , but there were enough to increase the bill from two trillion to six trillion, I can’t imagine that kind of money, with the warning of a senator of a few years ago, who said, “a billion here , a billion there , before long we will be talking real money here”, now they are throwing around SIX TRILLION !
    To who ? and Why ?same people as usual., came on the back of the pandemic and it would cover everybody’s ass, recognize the opportunity and get rich, it’s the American mantra

  141. Nutmag, don’t mention the bloody Falklands again! the embers are still glowing from the last time. Have you ever heard of Thomas Midgely? He highly successful in his day but he’s now known as one of deadliest inventors in history. Leaded petrol, CFCs and the hole in the ozone layer were some of his greatest hits. He eventually killed himself with one of his own inventions too. In his later life he was disabled by polio so he invented a pulley system to help himself get out of bed without help, but in the spirit of his earlier inventions, it was so dangerous that he ended up getting strangled to death by it!

    Chuck,
    Ah yes! good old Amy Goodman. She’s been at it for a while now, I remember watching old films of her trying to give Nixon and Kissinger a hard time. Didn’t Bernie Sanders fight to impose strict conditions on the ‘corporate welfare’ part of that bill, as well as some Republicans who were concerned that it would help unemployed people too much?

  142. I guess there was a lot of pressure on the Two Trillion (now reportedly with attachments added, a six trillion+ the fact is those I would or could have voted for had no choice but to agree, or risk being called the only senators to reject a needed bill, to pay for anti- virus needs .
    A golden opportunity to pass particular bills that stood no chance of ever passing and another six trillion to the national debt.
    Same thing Ronnie Raygun did with over fifteen % inflation and was recognized as a great economist, but this is four trillion that will go to places and people, with nothing to do with the present pandemic, yup ! nice work if you can get it !
    Of course by now (The National debt. is a joke) with no hope of ever being paid and who is going to upset the world order by demanding payment, most countries
    having invested zillions in the US economy.
    The big cahuna Trump is constantly on the air, either sounding like the idiot he is and has a minder doctor to stop him when he goes too far, expounding his belief we will be over this plague sooner than we think, when we haven’t even reached any peak, because of the unprepared state of the country, which he bears a good deal of the responsibility .
    Yup ! When one looks at the present conditions throughout the globe one has to wonder why democracy (the cause) is considered such a great system.

    0

  143. I guess there was a lot of pressure on the Two Trillion (now reportedly with attachments added, a six trillion+ the fact is those I would or could have voted for had no choice but to agree, or risk being called the only senators to reject a needed bill, to pay for anti- virus needs .
    A golden opportunity to pass particular bills that stood no chance of ever passing and another six trillion to the national debt.
    Same thing Ronnie Raygun did with over fifteen % inflation and was recognized as a great economist, but this is four trillion that will go to places and people, with nothing to do with the present pandemic, yup ! nice work if you can get it !
    Of course by now (The National debt. is a joke) with no hope of ever being paid and who is going to upset the world order by demanding payment, most countries
    having invested zillions in the US economy
    The big cahuna Trump is constantly on the air, either sounding like the idiot he is and has a minder doctor to stop him when he goes too far, expounding his belief we will be over this plague sooner than we think, when we haven’t even reached any peak, because of the unprepared state of the country, which he bears a good deal of the responsibility .
    Yup ! When one looks at the present conditions throughout the globe one has to wonder why democracy (the cause) is considered such a great system.

    0

  144. Well I can’t argue with you this time, Chuck, as you hit the nail on the head about disasters being used as an excuse for corporate welfare. On the debt though, the US has the biggest debt of any country but it’s a big country, when you break it down to a per capita level, it isn’t the highest by any means.

    Can we move on to the latest page now? This is a really old blog.

  145. Ventured out again, mask-less of course being the state of preparedness, has been totally absent, resulting in air time being given to our President, who pollutes it with random thoughts that are no more than political endorsements of himself and his constantly changing advisors.
    In fact Boris is made to look smart in comparison, certainly both he and his royal highness Charlie are safely out of the line of fire , Isolating.
    Well there’s still no sign of any test’s being available, though I understand if you have the connections and money, then they are now
    readily available.
    Well yesterday right at the time I decided to venture out, a rain storm began much like one that occurred the last time I decided to add to my supplies, of which I have innocent visions of washing away those deadly spores , hey we can only wonder, being we not only cannot be supplied with the required protection, but have very little in the way of an understanding of this the deadliest and fastest speeding of viruses certainly so far in this century.
    Unfortunately it’s a bad time what with a national vote about to take place here in the USA, it will be interesting to see who or what dominates the headlines, being Trump is projecting all will be under control by Easter, apparently the economy is more important to him, when listening to his statements, than a few thousand deaths or more.
    It was stated in most countries that those presently fighting this Pandemic would get first opportunities , (the likes of nurses, Doctors and many others) presently in the front line. To expect the necessary
    tests and defensive equipment, but it ‘s obvious that ‘s no longer the case , with politico’s, royals and the wealthy using their status to jump the queue, I hope they are all enjoying their solitude in isolation and are not too bored.

    o

  146. Over here it was cold and windy with lots of things blowing around in the wind but no rain. My local supermarkets are like Studio 54 now, long queues outside, bouncer on the door saying you’re not coming in yet etc… there was lots of very cheap luxury food they were selling off for next to nothing once I got in though so I’ll be having smoked salmon for brunch over the next few days. Maybe I’ll try Eggs Royale.

    I think that rule number one is to stay away from people, which I’m pretty good at anyway.

  147. Yeah ! getting a bit boring this isolation, but at least one feels somewhat
    more secure at home, especially while living in the nations Pandemic Epicenter, however it’s only when one is outside that the paranoic awareness comes into play.
    It’s more like a sense awareness of what was a normal life style, which has become a shutdown city for the most part, some businesses have already been boarded up, there are few actual businesses open.
    Banks are closed and don’t be crazy enough to call any official government lines or any businesses,
    Sure the markets now have their lines , spaced a couple of meters apart are each customer, with a certain overall number only allowed inside.
    Many restaurants have simply closed as opposed to becoming take out or delivery operations during the pandemic, plus there are many who may not reopen, depending on how long and severe the Pandemic is,
    We will certainly see a different NYC and should the situation continues until November and remain unsolved, who knows what may occur.
    Both the local and national news have become more like electioneering than a report on the Pandemic,
    As of yet reports of millions of items, mostly equipment dealing with the safety of the front line medics, but no masks . gloves, nor tests as of yet
    I fear this may take some time before we manage to regain any kind of normality, what with businesses closing. bankruptcies and a host of unemployed, not to mention the six trillion to cover costs and the biggest gift ever, money going to the wealthy in the extra tacked on bills
    which amounts to around four trillion, that no one will ever question.
    Not exactly a future desired by the average working stiff, but as usual a situation, where the rich get rich and the poor get poorer.
    One benefit from the lockdown is very little noise during both the day and night, which only produces the usual ambulance and fire truck sirens.
    Best of luck to all involved !,

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